ever.greener wrote:A big focus as it seemed for much of what i had listened to in episode 81 was the topic of Hell. And how Hell is a main reason there cannot be an All loving, All powerful God, because what kind of loving God sends people to Hell and tortures them for all eternity? Well, as a Christian, my opinion on this is that until you know what Hell exactly is, it will be hard to change your mindset on what an All loving, All powerful God is.
Well Hell, in a nutshell, is just total separation from God's presence. Even the darkest of beings on this earth are still surrounded by the presence of God. They do there best to flee, but none the less it still remains. So atheists, in a sense in their rejection of the holy Spirit, live in a "hell" everyday. So why then should it be such a surprise for them then when we speak of Hell as in the "place" Biblically depicted?
While, today many Christians seem to have lost the flavor of Hell Fire preaching, the fact is the bible doesn't teach that hell is "just seperation from God" it teaches that its eternal and a place of torture Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, jyou did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
The Holy Bible : English standard version. While many Christian try to sugar coat hell, by that saying its just a seperation from God or a someone being in the state of regret. The point is that weather its literally burning and torture or emotional suffering loss by not being in God's presence, its still cruel. To say that this God is all loving is a contradiction. What would we think of a human father that only cloths and feeds half his kids, but beats and neglects the other half. Do we call him a good father? NO!!! he's a child abuser, doesn't matter that he was good to one half. Same with God, even if we take hell out of the picture, there are countless children starving everyday. Yet aparently God only pays attention to certain peoples prayers and others he is indifferent too. So we can hardly call this God All loving, if he is all loving then he certainly can't be all powerful as he is obviously doesn't have the power to take care of all his creation.
Since Hell is total separation from God, and no one can be in total separation no matter how badly they'd wish to be on this earth, why blame God for "sending" them there, depict Him as an evil being, when in fact in LIFE they chose to get as close to this Hell, this separation as they can? This, shows my point in where, God doesn't send anyone to Hell or Heaven....or anywhere in fact. He may motivate you or ask to go a certain way, take a certain route, but does that mean i automatically end up there? Of coarse not. Johna is a classic example. Anyway, what I'm talking about is free will. YOUR free will is whats going to send you to Heaven or Hell. God loves you enough to let you make the choice on your own. What kind of love would it be if we were controlled TO love, and controlled TO do things. There are always consequences because of our actions, both positive, and negative. By not recognizing, by choosing, not to recognize that God sent his son Jesus to this world to take the punishment for our sins so that we may have eternal life in Heaven, in perfection, we send ourselves to "Hell", the final and complete isolation from God. But when we Do see Christ for who he claimed to be, and is, we CHOOSE to send ourselves to perfection in Heaven, where God gladly welcomes us.
Nice try, but the fact is that the majority of the world isn't Christian. Furthermore, even less of the world is even your brand of Christian. So the fact is most of the world doesn't have this so called choice you're describing. The fact majority of people are born into a religion stay in that religion. Many polls show that 80% of christians accepted Jesus before the age of 18 and 90% did so before 21. This leaves a very slim margin of adult converts. I'm sorry but really a minor child making a choice about what religion to follow is not really a chice at all. Face it, its not a choice, its indoctination. Telling a child or teenager that if they don't follow Jesus or they will burn (or be cast out of god's presents) is no more of a choice than if someone puts a gun to your head and tells you to give them your wallet.
Gods heart breaks when we choose to ignore His call, and his love. But he wont force you to believe Him. He wont force you to love him....If that's not All Loving...what is? He'll do whatever it takes to get your attention...because HE believes you're worth it. Them though you may choose, to believe you or He is not. Hes given you the road map, hes given you a guide to get you there ( aka the Holy Spirit) and he's given you your own life to experience it all.
Hmm, you have a strange defintion of what force is then. Either worship me, and accept me or burn...yeah not really a choice. Its like a wise guy telling you you have a choice to pay them to protect your store or they will burn it down. OH WOW SUCH A CHOICE. Yeah either love me or i'll torment you for eternety, how is that not forcing someone to love you. Its like telling a rape victim it wasn't raped because she could have chosen to be shot instead. Your arguement is silly and ignorant.
So its not matter of an arrogant being in the clouds sending people to Hell for not believing everything He says and not following everything to a T. Its a matter of an ignorant and arrogant Me, pushing myself closer and closer to destruction for ignoring the guide hes given me, that would in turn totally transform my life on this earth in the life to come.
Well at least you admit to being ignorant and arrogant. What is ignorant and arrognat is being so cock sure of what a 2000+ year old book says is true, regardless of the lackof evidence to the historical accurancy.
His grace is enough...even when you may not want it. Even though you don't believe in God...he sure as heaven believes in you. and hes hoping, everyday that you will see it for what it is, and peruse excellence in all things so that you, and you alone are the one CHOOSING where you'll be spending eternity. He loves you...whether you believe it or not. But that's the point isn't it....he's letting you chose not to...because instead of demanding love...He's simple looking and asking with hope for that love in return.
So do i get to recipicate all the suffering god has put in my life too. Fair is fair. If i have to love him as much as he loves me. I should suffer him as much as he put suffering on me. OR rather maybe one of those starving children or kids with cancer could repay him all the suffering he caused them in their short life. Grace is a joke.
Thanks to all who read through this fully, this is just what was laid down on my heart after listening to the podcast. And thank you Emery and Scott for putting this all together. I respect you both as humans, and love you both as creations. Many blessings, and thanks again. - James Harris (aka ever.greener)
Exrev wrote:Hmm, you have a strange defintion of what force is then. Either worship me, and accept me or burn...yeah not really a choice. Its like a wise guy telling you you have a choice to pay them to protect your store or they will burn it down. OH WOW SUCH A CHOICE. Yeah either love me or i'll torment you for eternety, how is that not forcing someone to love you. Its like telling a rape victim it wasn't raped because she could have chosen to be shot instead. Your arguement is silly and ignorant.
ever.greener wrote:Thanks for the responses guys. Gives me more to challenge myself with, so I can have more validity for what i believe in. Thanks again for your opinions! Blessings
Christoff wrote:Exrev wrote:Hmm, you have a strange defintion of what force is then. Either worship me, and accept me or burn...yeah not really a choice. Its like a wise guy telling you you have a choice to pay them to protect your store or they will burn it down. OH WOW SUCH A CHOICE. Yeah either love me or i'll torment you for eternety, how is that not forcing someone to love you. Its like telling a rape victim it wasn't raped because she could have chosen to be shot instead. Your arguement is silly and ignorant.
Exrev, to tag onto your reply here. I'm always dumb-struck when discussing religious topics (especially the Problem of Evil) with religious folks, how quickly they play the "Free Will" card. As if we ever had a free and fair choice.
I watched the movie "God On Trial" this weekend and found the section of the "trial" where the whole Free Will argument was used - and debunked - very apt. For those who haven't seen the movie yet, watch it! It's awesome!
The movie plays off in Aushwitz. One of the "inmates" had 3 sons, who was taken away by Nazi soldiers. He pleaded for the soldiers to spare his children. The soldier driving the truck (filled with little kids on the back) stopped, got out and asked the man which kids were his. After pointing the three boys out (the eldest was only 7), the soldier gave the man a choice: choose one. Choose the one you want to keep.
What "choice" did the man have? How much free will did he have in his choice-making?
Personally, the whole Eden-Snake-Original Sin scenario sets us up so that we find ourselves in a similar predicament as this poor father finds himself. Free Will? I doubt we have complete Free will.
I do think though that setting us all up in this way is deliberate...
ever.greener wrote:I want to know what atheists "believe" so that I better understand how to apply what i believe.
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