Ep. 82: The Rev and the exrev

[Matt]

Thanks for sharing your story, Rick. Good to put a voice with a name!

[Pseudonym]

However, on the subject of addictions and their treatment and their treatment success rate, I'd like to point out that religious belief based addiction treatment provides no advantage for the addict over the addict simply making up their mind to beat the addiction all on their own.

While I agree that's almost certainly true, if you are already religious, it might be easier to administer a religious belief-based addiction treatment. Having said that, I doubt that anyone has gone to the trouble of testing this hypothesis either way.

[Exrev]

I enjoyed the show as well, and am glad Scott has learned to "walk on his own" with the show.

There was one comment from Exrev which struck me as extraordinary. He commented that as the minister in charge of outreach for his new congregation, he found himself at one point having little to do. I've never filled such a role before, but it seems to me a new congretation's "evangelist" ought to have his plate full until all the seats at service are filled, no?

I didn't say little to do, I said not enough work or people to make it full time. Its kinda hard to have events and outreaches when there is no money, so the 2 go hand in hand, you really have to have the people to support you to be able to work. There was only so much we could do with the limited resource we had. Also, i didn't see outreach having to do anything with filling the seats of the church, as much as helping people.

[Exrev]

However, on the subject of addictions and their treatment and their treatment success rate, I'd like to point out that religious belief based addiction treatment provides no advantage for the addict over the addict simply making up their mind to beat the addiction all on their own.

While I agree that's almost certainly true, if you are already religious, it might be easier to administer a religious belief-based addiction treatment. Having said that, I doubt that anyone has gone to the trouble of testing this hypothesis either way.

Actually there are studies on this. In fact, many Christian drug treatment programs such as teen challege have over stated there effectiveness. One big reason is that they don't count people who either leave or they kick out of the program. And if you do a quick search on the net your'll find a lot of horrible stories of people that were singled out to leave and what they do to them. I personaly know 1 person who this happened too and i was surprised to find that his story was very similar to others that have posted their experience online, this isn't just one facility eits nationwide. It's pretty scary to see what these programs do, I've actually visited a girl's teen challege (as a pastor to minsiter) and it was pretty shocking to see what they were doing, which actually lead me to research them. I have to say its cultish, a lot of mind control and the staff have complete control over you as a person. Your not allowed to question them you have to do what they say.

[JustJim]

Actually there are studies on this. In fact, many Christian drug treatment programs such as teen challege have over stated there effectiveness. One big reason is that they don't count people who either leave or they kick out of the program.

This is also true of Alcoholics Anonymous. Even though they don't keep records of how many people come to a few meetings and then leave, never to be heard from again, or records of any kind that track individuals or develop statistics based on individual recovery rates, they're still considered by most in the recovery business to be far and above all other programs in terms of maintaining long-term successful recovery from alcoholism. That's a significant distinction, considering there's no way to know if it's true or not....

Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) also claims not to be a religious program. Belief in God is not required, so they claim; all a person needs to do is accept the idea of a "Higher Power" to which they can surrender their will. HOWEVER, a quick review of the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous would indicate otherwise. Here's a sampling of the steps that specifically mention God:

3. We made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
5. We admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. We were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. We humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

I'm sorry, AA, but that is SO religious.... And for further evidence of that, a huge number (by far a majority) of the hundreds of meetings I attended ended each meeting standing in a circle, holding hands, and saying the Lord's Prayer!! Tell me THAT'S not religious! When I used to protest that our recovery program (I was a substance abuse counselor for over 25 years) required all our patients - even atheists - to attend AA meetings regularly as a part of their recovery, I was told stupid stuff like, "They don't have to believe in God. Anything can be their Higher Power - even a doorknob!" Well, I'll just say that if a doorknob can be someone's "higher power", they need a lot more help than just recovery from alcoholism....

That said, I always adhered to the "Triple W" approach to recovery (What Works, Works!) For people who can identify with AA's approach and find the 12-Step program helpful, more power to 'em! But for those who are repulsed and alienated by it, use something else - something that works!

The bottom line on effectiveness, I think, is that it's too hard to tell. Poor or non-existent record-keeping and skewed statistical data make real comparisons between religious-based programs and secular programs very unreliable.

Jim

[WorldlingWatcher]

I didn't say little to do, I said not enough work or people to make it full time. Its kinda hard to have events and outreaches when there is no money, so the 2 go hand in hand, you really have to have the people to support you to be able to work. There was only so much we could do with the limited resource we had. Also, i didn't see outreach having to do anything with filling the seats of the church, as much as helping people.

Now I see; that makes more sense.

[IndyAtheist]

IndyAtheists meet this Monday, 7/19, at 7pm, at Moe and Johnny's in broadripple. We're in the northeast corner by the front door usually. Or ask a waitress...we're regulars and they know us.

[Pseudonym]

Actually there are studies on this. In fact, many Christian drug treatment programs such as teen challege have over stated there effectiveness.

Ah, right. I was thinking more along the lines of AA with its generic "higher power", but I can certainly see that explicitly Christian treatment programmes could easily get cultish if you weren't careful.

Incidentally, you guys never did explain what a "church plant" is. Is it more like horticulture or espionage?

[Exrev]

Actually there are studies on this. In fact, many Christian drug treatment programs such as teen challege have over stated there effectiveness.

Ah, right. I was thinking more along the lines of AA with its generic "higher power", but I can certainly see that explicitly Christian treatment programmes could easily get cultish if you weren't careful.

Incidentally, you guys never did explain what a "church plant" is. Is it more like horticulture or espionage?

A church plant simply means starting a new church. A pastor who starts churches (some just go around start a church move every 2 years) is called a church planter.

[mitchellmckain]

Well after throwing up my hands in a discussion with Exrev, I went ahead and listened to this podcast anyway.

What can I say but that I have far far more problems with this extreme anti-science anti-reason christian cult which Exrev came out of than I do with atheism. What I see in the story he told was the collapse of a worldview/ideology that just could not stand up to a little healthy questioning and investigation. I don't know if you noticed how vehemently I argued with WorldlingWatcher over this idea that Christianity was a worldview. It certainly is not that for me at all. I absolutely do not accept christianity as some kind of filter which allows only approved information and thoughts to pass through it as it seemed to be operating in your life, and frankly I really do not believe that it was ever intended to be any such thing. I think this is an invention of modern times, where this whole idea of Christians being seperate from the world has been blown way out of proportion.

I 100% applaud this liberation of the mind you have experienced from such brain paralyzing shackles and I say welcome to the world of human thought. There is a LOT of wonderful stuff out here in this world, and although I certainly think that science is some of the best there is, there is lot more besides to be found in philosophy so I hope you explore some of that too. And who knows, maybe... just maybe, when you have some intellectual tools to help you seperate out a lot of the bullshit, maybe you will once again be able to see something of value in Christianity after all. Maybe right now you are dealing all the problems of prejudice against atheism that I haven't the slightest clue about because I simply was never any part of that kind of throwback to the dark ages world, but wouldn't it be interesting going back to that family of yours as the kind of Christian who can bring a little light back into those dark corners? Just thinkin...

Cause let me tell you that this blind faith that tells you to just believe what you are told has absolutely nothing to do with real faith. Read the parable of the talents in Matthew 25:14-30 and consider the story in terms of intellectual endeavors and you will see that these fundamentalist Christians are like that servant who took his one talent and buried it in the ground so he could give it back to the master as he received it. Because they have such an unloving conception of God they take the Bible (their one talent) that God has given them and instead of using their mind and creativity to make their understanding of it grow, they keep it preserved and unchanged the way we keep a dead body by pumping it full of embalming fluid. That parable is about REAL faith which the wicked and slothful servant has none.

Consider Matthew 13:10-15 and you will see that those who cling to the literal interpretation of scripture are those whose heart has grown dull, and ears heavy of hearing, and eyes closed. They insist on believing the fairy tale rather than understanding the parable because they refuse to use their eyes to see the world and the evedence that is there to be found and it is from a hardness of heart that they make their God into a hard-nosed tyrant who condemns the world and everyone in it.

[NH Baritone]

Well after throwing up my hands in a discussion with Exrev, I went ahead and listened to this podcast anyway.

What can I say but that I have far far more problems with this extreme anti-science anti-reason christian cult which Exrev came out of than I do with atheism. What I see in the story he told was the collapse of a worldview/ideology that just could not stand up to a little healthy questioning and investigation. I don't know if you noticed how vehemently I argued with WorldlingWatcher over this idea that Christianity was a worldview. It certainly is not that for me at all. I absolutely do not accept christianity as some kind of filter which allows only approved information and thoughts to pass through it as it seemed to be operating in your life, and frankly I really do not believe that it was ever intended to be any such thing. I think this is an invention of modern times, where this whole idea of Christians being seperate [sic] from the world has been blown way out of proportion.

I 100% applaud this liberation of the mind you have experienced from such brain paralyzing shackles and I say welcome to the world of human thought. There is a LOT of wonderful stuff out here in this world, and although I certainly think that science is some of the best there is, there is lot more besides to be found in philosophy so I hope you explore some of that too. And who knows, maybe... just maybe, when you have some intellectual tools to help you seperate [sic] out a lot of the bullshit, maybe you will once again be able to see something of value in Christianity after all. Maybe right now you are dealing all the problems of prejudice against atheism that I haven't the slightest clue about because I simply was never any part of that kind of throwback to the dark ages world, but wouldn't it be interesting going back to that family of yours as the kind of Christian who can bring a little light back into those dark corners? Just thinkin...

Cause let me tell you that this blind faith that tells you to just believe what you are told has absolutely nothing to do with real faith. Read the parable of the talents in Matthew 25:14-30 and consider the story in terms of intellectual endeavors and you will see that these fundamentalist Christians are like that servant who took his one talent and buried it in the ground so he could give it back to the master as he received it. Because they have such an unloving conception of God they take the Bible (their one talent) that God has given them and instead of using their mind and creativity to make their understanding of it grow, they keep it preserved and unchanged the way we keep a dead body by pumping it full of embalming fluid. That parable is about REAL faith which the wicked and slothful servant has none.

Consider Matthew 13:10-15 and you will see that those who cling to the literal interpretation of scripture are those whose heart has grown dull, and ears heavy of hearing, and eyes closed. They insist on believing the fairy tale rather than understanding the parable because they refuse to use their eyes to see the world and the evedence [sic] that is there to be found and it is from a hardness of heart that they make their God into a hard-nosed tyrant who condemns the world and everyone in it.

MitchMack, I continue to be puzzled about what (other than potluck dinners) you gain by aligning yourself with Christianity.

It is clear from your writing that the common ground you share with other Christians is smaller than a communion wafer. You additionally don't seem to like them much, and the vast majority of them would reject your representation of the faith.

That seems quite a bit of compromise, all so you have the opportunity to clog your arteries with potatoes au gratin and red velvet cake.

[mitchellmckain]

I got up this morning expecting some complaint about assuming that if he went back to bring light to his family then he would have to do it as a Christian, because I admit I really don't think this is realistically possible to do this as an atheist. But if Exrev thinks it is possible then he would know better, and I would delighted and applaud him if he did. You guys see the path that you have come, abandoning that sort of christianity for a rich and valuable heritage that they have spurned, and maybe you think that is the path of salvation for everyone. But I see things from a different perspective.

MitchMack, I continue to be puzzled about what (other than potluck dinners) you gain by aligning yourself with Christianity.

Nothing. I am not Christian because of some gain I get from aligning myself with them. I am Christian because of what I have in common with them. It may not seem like very much to you, because all you see is value of what they (the sort Christianity that Exrev admits he comes from and the sort I suspect you come from a well) lack and not the value of what they have. I strongly believe that for the most part, unless you can see the value of what people cling to, then you don't really have much hope of showing them the value of what they have thrown away.

I know that I often fail to get that commonality across, because I lack the ingrained habit of getting the message out and sharing the gospel message every chance I get like they do. But then I have my doubts about effectiveness of that approach anyway. Remember that I was raised in an extremely liberal environment fully aware of the shortcomings of the "conservative world" and it isn't difficult for me to tear into that, at all.

It is clear from your writing that the common ground you share with other Christians is smaller than a communion wafer.

As I said, what they have just seems small to you because you don't see the value of it. My common ground includes the communion wafer and much more.

You additionally don't seem to like them much, and the vast majority of them would reject your representation of the faith.

I think you tend to see all of Christian through the lens of one dirty little corner of it, but it really is much bigger than that. No I don't like that squallid corner of Christrianity and I can see things I don't like about many other corners of it too. But at the same time I see things of value in many of these parts of Christianity as well. The vast majority are groups that reject the representation of the faith by all the other groups -- so that is hardly anything of great significance from my perspective.

That seems quite a bit of compromise, all so you have the opportunity to clog your arteries with potatoes au gratin and red velvet cake.

LOL I actually eat pretty healthy I think. I think that "potatoes au gratin" is what I call "scalloped potatoes" and I love them but I don't get to eat them very often. I don't think those are all that unhealthy. The cake, if made with butter icing (or even worse made with margarine), is deadly and I don't like it. But what will really clog your arteries is fast food, doghnuts and shelf baked goods like twinkies. Its not how much fat you eat so much as what kind. Everyone in my family cooks and we cook food from all over the world. My specialty is Thai food, though tonight I plan on serving BLTs.

I don't compromise, but I have occasionally learned to keep mouth shut -- something that I often have to do no matter whose company I am in.

[WorldlingWatcher]

I don't know if you noticed how vehemently I argued with WorldlingWatcher over this idea that Christianity was a worldview. It certainly is not that for me at all. I absolutely do not accept christianity as some kind of filter which allows only approved information and thoughts to pass through it as it seemed to be operating in your life, and frankly I really do not believe that it was ever intended to be any such thing.

If this is the generally accepted definition of "worldview", I agree with Mitch: Christianity is not a worldview.

[Pseudonym]

A church plant simply means starting a new church. A pastor who starts churches (some just go around start a church move every 2 years) is called a church planter.

Right, that's what I thought. The context in the podcast suggested that it involved infiltration of already existing churches, but I figured that probably wasn't it, hence the confusion.

Never mind, as you were.

[Exrev]

A church plant simply means starting a new church. A pastor who starts churches (some just go around start a church move every 2 years) is called a church planter.

Right, that's what I thought. The context in the podcast suggested that it involved infiltration of already existing churches, but I figured that probably wasn't it, hence the confusion.

Never mind, as you were.

Well we tried to work with other churches. That wasn't always easy, I think some pastors might have thought that! Which is really ashame as we were only seeking guidance and support. But oh well where humans are involved ego is always present. But there where pastors that welcomed us with open arms!