Experiences that cause them to believe

[mensbattleplan]

This post is in response to Lawrences questions for me from the post "Atheist: to be rude or not"

Of course you are free to believe whatever you wish and you are not responsible for the actions of others in your religion like some anti-theists would have us believe. However, have you thought about how people from every religion have equally convincing experiences that cause they to believe?

I don't know if people from other religions have "had equally convincing experiences that cause them to believe". I am not sure why people of other faiths believe what they believe. Maybe most of them don't believe in their religion and they are just going along with society. I know this happens for most Christians so I'm sure it happens in other religions.

I've never heard a conversion story from a muslim, hindu, mormon, etc. Maybe you could tell me a conversion story from another religion.

They can't all be right (depending on your beliefs) but it seems extreme to assume that they are all delusional, manipulated or deceiving themselves.

It does seem extreme to believe that. Does someone you know believe that? Do you?

Is there something uniquely Christian about your experiences that you wouldn't get if you were in some other religion?

The experiences that a Christian has is very unique to Christianity. Other religions don't experience having Jesus as their savior from their sins. They have other gods and things that save them. They have idols to save them. They have themselves.

How would you answer these questions?

[Lawrence]

I don't know if people from other religions have "had equally convincing experiences that cause them to believe". I am not sure why people of other faiths believe what they believe. Maybe most of them don't believe in their religion and they are just going along with society. I know this happens for most Christians so I'm sure it happens in other religions.

I've never heard a conversion story from a muslim, hindu, mormon, etc. Maybe you could tell me a conversion story from another religion.

It would be pretty close-minded to believe Christianity has a monopoly on conversion or personal experience. I've always been an atheist so I can't contribute here.

It does seem extreme to believe that. Does someone you know believe that? Do you?

Well what do you think that says about your faith? Are you willing to accept others are just as faithful in some other religion?

The experiences that a Christian has is very unique to Christianity. Other religions don't experience having Jesus as their savior from their sins. They have other gods and things that save them. They have idols to save them. They have themselves.

That's an odd thing to say. Christians don't have themselves to save them? As for idols that is exactly how other religions would view Jesus. Christianity also has idols in the Bible for protestants and in the Pope and the Church for Catholics. Of course that is a sweeping generalization but no doubt there are many Christians practicing idolatry.

[mensbattleplan]

mensbattleplan wrote:The experiences that a Christian has is very unique to Christianity. Other religions don't experience having Jesus as their savior from their sins. They have other gods and things that save them. They have idols to save them. They have themselves.

That's an odd thing to say. Christians don't have themselves to save them?

Christians believe that only God save them through Jesus.

As for idols that is exactly how other religions would view Jesus.

They may but that wouldn't be correct using the definition that I am using here. In many religions they call themselves "Idol worshipers" because they have little statues they carry around with them and they bow down to them. Christians do this but it isn't part of the religion and would be a sin.

Christianity also has idols in the Bible for protestants and in the Pope and the Church for Catholics.

The Bible is an idol to some Christians? Sure, I guess that could be possible. What's your point?

Of course that is a sweeping generalization but no doubt there are many Christians practicing idolatry.

Yep, they sure do. Christians are a bunch of sinners. We probably sin more than non-theists. We're a sick group who needs serious help. But we're trying.

[humanguy]

In many religions they call themselves "Idol worshipers" because they have little statues they carry around with them and they bow down to them.

Example.

[Lawrence]

Christians believe that only God save them through Jesus.

Ok I see what you mean. Although that is a rather lowly view of humanity.

They may but that wouldn't be correct using the definition that I am using here. In many religions they call themselves "Idol worshipers" because they have little statues they carry around with them and they bow down to them. Christians do this but it isn't part of the religion and would be a sin.

Hah, that's a funny mental picture. Anyway Jews, Muslims, Hindus and others see Christians as idolatrous so why are they wrong?

Yep, they sure do. Christians are a bunch of sinners. We probably sin more than non-theists. We're a sick group who needs serious help. But we're trying.

What is it about believing in God that makes you worse than the rest of us? Do you think people should be extra cautious about Christians being around their children? Apart from priests that is, that's a given.

[mensbattleplan]

Hah, that's a funny mental picture. Anyway Jews, Muslims, Hindus and others see Christians as idolatrous so why are they wrong?

They do? I didn't know that. Why?

What is it about believing in God that makes you worse than the rest of us? Do you think people should be extra cautious about Christians being around their children? Apart from priests that is, that's a given.

I'm just trying to be humble. I want to get across the message that I don't think I'm better than anyone else because I'm a Christian. People tend to believe that Christians think we're more ethical and sometimes this isn't the case.

No, I don't think you need to worry about Christians being around their children. That is a joke, right?

[gary_s]

Hah, that's a funny mental picture. Anyway Jews, Muslims, Hindus and others see Christians as idolatrous so why are they wrong?

They do? I didn't know that. Why?

This is often a major shortcoming of many Christians (and probably other theists as well). They know so little about other faiths that they assume that their faith has a higher level of validity because of some innocuous detail or another (such as your comments about a personal savior). Most of the Christians I know are profoundly certain that their faith is the only valid faith, or rather, the only one that will result in salvation. Yet in general, they have only a casual knowledge of a tiny fraction of the other faiths that people practice. And an astonishingly high percentage of them have only a fleeting knowledge of Christianity. How is it that these people can be so certain of something that they know so little about? Spiritual salvation must be a complex concept because it is practiced by billions and has been in existence for all of known human history. So the idea that I should simply assume the religious tradition that I grew up knowing is the only valid one is a most absurd concept.

[mensbattleplan]

Hah, that's a funny mental picture. Anyway Jews, Muslims, Hindus and others see Christians as idolatrous so why are they wrong?

They do? I didn't know that. Why?

This is often a major shortcoming of many Christians (and probably other theists as well).

It's funny that you go on after this comment to talk about how little people know about their own religion and others because I don't think you know what idolatrous means.

I don't think that other religions say that Christians are idolatrous because the basic tenets do not involve worshiping idols. "You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."
However,many Chinese religions who worship their ancestors and their bones, African culture who believe that gods are in objects such as trees, many shamans believe that objects have powers themselves to give predictions of the future. Read Chasing the Dragon and you'll see that many people in Hong Kong worshiped idols and called themselves "idol worshipers".

I believe that Buddhist, Muslims, some Hindus, Christians are not idolatrous because they don't believe that the gods reside in objects like many ancient religions do.

So when I ask the person why other religions consider Christians to be idolatrous I wanted him to clarify because I didn't think that he meant to use word idolatrous. Maybe he should have used the word "wrong", "incorrect", "blasphemous" , "impious".

They know so little about other faiths that they assume that their faith has a higher level of validity because of some innocuous detail or another (such as your comments about a personal savior).

I'm constantly amazed at the assumptions that people make based on a short conversation. You mistakenly believe that I:

assume that their faith has a higher level of validity because of some innocuous detail or another (such as your comments about a personal savior).

I was simply answering a question

"Is there something uniquely Christian about your experiences that you wouldn't get if you were in some other religion?"

And I said "The experiences that a Christian has is very unique to Christianity. Other religions don't experience having Jesus as their savior from their sins. They have other gods and things that save them. They have idols to save them. They have themselves. "

Where in what I said made you think that I assumed my faith has a higher level of validity because of this detail? I was simply saying that Jews, Muslims, Hindus will not experience Jesus as a savior from their sins. This in no way makes Christianity more valid, it's just a fact. (Muslims don't believe that Jesus is the only way to make atonement with God because their sins.)

Most of the Christians I know are profoundly certain that their faith is the only valid faith, or rather, the only one that will result in salvation. Yet in general, they have only a casual knowledge of a tiny fraction of the other faiths that people practice. And an astonishingly high percentage of them have only a fleeting knowledge of Christianity.

Fleeting knowledge? I wouldn't use the word fleeting. I'm sure you are familiar with the latest study done the Pew research center. http://pewforum.org/Other-Beliefs-and-P ... urvey.aspx. Evangelicals, which I'm guessing is who you talk to the most about religion, know the most of their own religion than any other group.

How is it that these people can be so certain of something that they know so little about?

I'm not so sure that people are so certain. I think most religious people DO go along with whatever religion they were brought up in. But some of us don't blindly believe. We research, we come on atheist/christian forums to learn and discuss, we understand facts about science and we still see that they fit into our beliefs. (Ie. the age of the earth being 2.5+ billion year still fits into the creation model.)

I can honestly say that I believe that Christianity makes the most sense. I like that the Bible was written by so many different people over thousands of years and the details match up so perfectly (some of you may think there are too many contradictions. read my article on this http://www.mensbattleplan.com/2010/12/10/condradictions-in-the-bible/.

I like how the Bible in Gen 17:20 predicts that Muslims will be what they are today "As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him, and will make him fruitful and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation."

I love that Christianity is the only religion where your behavior doesn't determine where you spend the afterlife.

Spiritual salvation must be a complex concept because it is practiced by billions and has been in existence for all of known human history. So the idea that I should simply assume the religious tradition that I grew up knowing is the only valid one is a most absurd concept.

You are right!

[mitchellmckain]

I love that Christianity is the only religion where your behavior doesn't determine where you spend the afterlife.

Whereas that is why I think it is the worst of religions. That may surprise you because I am a Christian. But its not really my religion. I am Christian because of what I found in Christianity that transends religion.

[NH Baritone]

I love that Christianity is the only religion where your behavior doesn't determine where you spend the afterlife.

Recognizing I consider it all vain fantasy, I nonetheless read with bemusement the juxtaposition of this quote from a Christian and Scott's recent comments that Christianity provides for the hope of justice in the afterlife.

If the two elements are both central to Christianity, and they often are cited by a wide variety of Christians, it seems that the believers expect to avoid rather than face justice, while they watch non-believers tossed into torture chamber.

I'm sorry, but this fails miserably to meet any definition of "justice," and instead makes Christians appear to look forward to cruel whimsy.

[mensbattleplan]

it seems that the believers expect to avoid rather than face justice, while they watch non-believers tossed into [img]torture%20chamber[/img].

I'm sorry, but this fails miserably to meet any definition of "justice," and instead makes Christians appear to look forward to cruel whimsy.

I'm not sure what you expect us to want to do considering what we believe? We believe that justice will be served and we want to avoid the consequences of sin. I don't think we want to avoid justice but rather the guilty verdict.

Maybe it would help for you, or anyone, to explain to me what you think this phrase means to you:

I love that Christianity is the only religion where your behavior doesn't determine where you spend the afterlife.

[humanguy]

Maybe it would help for you, or anyone, to explain to me what you think this phrase means to you:

I love that Christianity is the only religion where your behavior doesn't determine where you spend the afterlife.

What it means to me is that you believe in an afterlife.

[NH Baritone]

it seems that the believers expect to avoid rather than face justice, while they watch non-believers tossed into torture chamber.

I'm sorry, but this fails miserably to meet any definition of "justice," and instead makes Christians appear to look forward to cruel whimsy.

I'm not sure what you expect us to want to do considering what we believe? We believe that justice will be served and we want to avoid the consequences of sin. I don't think we want to avoid justice but rather the guilty verdict.

Maybe it would help for you, or anyone, to explain to me what you think this phrase means to you:

I love that Christianity is the only religion where your behavior doesn't determine where you spend the afterlife.

Your statement is as abundantly clear as my criticism. There is no evidence at all that we do not understand one another.

You're new here, so you may not be aware that I am the son of a Methodist minister, that in college I majored in religion, and that afterward I spent a year in seminary. So when it comes to the idiomatic doublespeak of Christianity, I consider myself fluent.

I leave you with a quote from the second chapter of James' epistle that I hope may challenge your certainty:

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

[Tim-the-Hermit]

I think people know by now that I have a whole load of problems with the Heaven and Hell thing and here's another. I find it impossible to shoehorn the doctrine into any box with the label of 'justice' on it.

Most people seem to be a mixture of good and bad with the measures of each altering from person to person. There are many things quite outside our control which dictate what these measures are as well as there being some personal responsibility.

Heaven and Hell is like black and white, but no grey, or hot and cold, but no warm. It's an impossibly neat 'either or' that doesn't deal with reality.

My idea of justice is being given credit for your good points while being made aware of your faults, perhaps with some remedial punishment. I despise vindictive punishment. Everybody has some degree of good to be praised and some degree of bad to be dealt with. Except one, perhaps!

[mensbattleplan]

I leave you with a quote from the second chapter of James' epistle that I hope may challenge your certainty:

What does James 2 have to do with where we go after we die?

Ephesians 2:8-9
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast."