Experiences that cause them to believe

[NH Baritone]

I leave you with a quote from the second chapter of James' epistle that I hope may challenge your certainty:

What does James 2 have to do with where we go after we die?

Ephesians 2:8-9
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

"Ah! Imagine that! A pair of passages in the Bible ... the New Testament yet ... that conflict with one another!!!

"We can't have that, can we?!?!

"I know! I will simply ignore the one that disagrees with the theological pablum that I've been fed!"

As I noted, I simply wanted to challenge your certainty. Some folks consider the James' Epistle to be a fraudulent screed and unworthy of inclusion in the Bible. Others consider every word contained within the canonical covers to be inspired by God and a basis for understanding God's mind. I cannot know for sure, but evidence suggests that you're more in the latter category. Therefore, if you need help detecting elements in James that conflict with Pauline theology, allow me to highlight some of them:

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

And just so I can make myself redundantly clear, let me paste the two most antithetical passages next to one another:

Paul: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

James: "Can such faith save them? ... faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."

Paul: "No, it isn't."

James: "Yes, it is."

Paul: "No, it isn't."

James: "Yes, it is."

Paul: "No, it isn't."

James: "Yes, it is."

Alright, I added that last bit. Nonetheless, it has been a point of contention among Christians, evidently at least since the time of the New Testament, how a person can enter into God's good graces.

It was this quandary that allowed the early church to adopt the doctrine of Purgatory, which although contrived and macabre, at least acknowledges that the dilemma exists.

Your lack of doubt suggests that you are ignoring the fact that your fellow believers harbor different opinions, and that this is far from settled theology.

But I'm not going to pursue this any further. I had these arguments 35 years ago, and I can thus predict the course of the conversation all the way to the harrumphing at its conclusion. I'll leave it to the readers to decide whether your complete credence is credible.

[Lawrence]

Technically there is an equal number of passages in the Bible asking for deeds as there are for faith alone in regard to salvation. Maybe you can ignore James' Epistle but can you ignore all of them and still feel secure in your beliefs?

If you want us to take your position seriously then what is your answer to each of these?

For you render to each one according to his works.

The labour of the righteous tendeth to life: the fruit of the wicked to sin.

I the Lord ... give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

When the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness ... and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul.

For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Who will render to each one according to his deeds. ... For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

NHB has already posted these

The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work.

I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Obviously a far more nuanced position is called for than rejecting all of these.

[mitchellmckain]

Technically there is an equal number of passages in the Bible asking for deeds as there are for faith alone in regard to salvation. Maybe you can ignore James' Epistle but can you ignore all of them and still feel secure in your beliefs?

Yes the Bible hammers on both of these repeatedly: each receives according to their works AND salvation is a gift by the grace of God through faith. Thus for the gnostic legalists that interpret this as justice that condemns everyone else and a loophole by which they themselves escape it, the Bible only has complete condemnation! To embrace both of these aspects of the Bible, you have to accept that salvation and justice are two different issues. Salvation is about a relationship with God that is freely given to whoever wants it, but justice awaits everyone regardless and cannot be escaped either in heaven or in hell. An eternal torment for anything done during a few short years on earth cannot have anything to do with any sane understanding of justice and an eternal punishment simply isn't rational. However some people create a hell around them wherever they may be (and think it is a party) while others stubbornly suck on their resentment and unhappiness like it was a candy they refuse to give up, and thus for them an eternal hell seem to be their own creation and choice.

Thus it seems to me that there are two kinds of justice. There is the justice for those who confront what they have done and are willing to make restitution and change, and there is the justice for those who refuse to change and in running from what they have done their destiny is forever ruled by those things. This is the choice between life and death that God repeatedly demands that we make. These are the two kinds of justice to be found in heaven and hell respectively.

[mensbattleplan]

Let's take these passages in the context in which they were written.

Ephesians 2:8-9
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Ephesians was a letter written to the non-Jews, Gentiles. It was a letter of encouragement to tell them they were now part of the family of God.

Up until Jesus came, the way you found favor with God was to be Jew and work by sacrificing, following the law, doing acts, circumcision,etc . There were many Jewish believers who didn't like the fact that a Gentile could now become one of them without doing these things. And even among the Jews that became Christians there was debate on whether to be circumcised or not.

The new Gentiles that were now part of the God's people didn't know how to now act. If you read Ephesians, all the way through, you see that Paul wanted the Gentiles to know that they didn't have to do these things that the jews are asking them to do to receive the acceptance into the family of God. Gentiles were accepted despite whether a person performed works but only through believing that Jesus Christ was God.

James 2:14
"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? "

James is talking here to Jewish believers who have been dispersed throughout because of persecution. It is a letter to them (mainly in chapters 4and 5) he is admonishing them because they were not loving others each other. He is trying to convince them that they can't just say they follow Christ's teaching, they need to also show that they follow it. John says it better in 1 John 2:4 "If you say you have come to know Him, yet you do not keep His commandments, then the truth is not in you and you are a liar."

The reason he says this to them is to help them understand that if they don't have works along with faith then maybe you really don't believe like you think you do. You are fooling yourself. This was a good test for them to put themselves through to see if they really believed. God doesn't need this test because He knows our hearts but we need to test ourselves to find out what is in our hearts. Through that test we can find and remove our selfishness and pride. Earlier in the chapter he talks about " for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness."

In James 2:2-5 he talks about testing our faith by going against the culture and giving a good seat to a poor person. Treat the poor the same as you would a rich person. That may be tough for some people especially in the first century.

To get this point across to them he speaks to them in a different way than he would to a Gentile. He reminds them of the faith of Abraham and Rehab because this is what they have been learned since the age of 2. They know these stories well. So he pleads with them to start behaving better and do the acts of love that Jesus wants us to. To do this he reminds them to act like the people that, for years, they have looked up to; Abraham and Rahab. He says "Be like them and get your butt in gear. Start loving on each other."

You must take the whole Bible into context; understand who the author is, who the audience is and what the whole message is they are trying to convey.

Also, if it takes works to get into heaven, then why did Jesus say to the thief on the cross, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

So the message to Christians is, you don't have to be a Jew and do a bunch of works to get you into heaven but if you believe in Christ you will want to do good works.

[marcuspnw]

In James 2:2-5 he talks about testing our faith by going against the culture and giving a good seat to a poor person. Treat the poor the same as you would a rich person. That may be tough for some people especially in the first century.

To get this point across to them he speaks to them in a different way than he would to a Gentile. He reminds them of the faith of Abraham and Rehab because this is what they have been learned since the age of 2. They know these stories well. So he pleads with them to start behaving better and do the acts of love that Jesus wants us to. To do this he reminds them to act like the people that, for years, they have looked up to; Abraham and Rahab. He says "Be like them and get your butt in gear. Start loving on each other."

So the message to Christians is, [edited}... if you believe in Christ you will want to do good works.

I've always liked this book of the Bible (the book of James). It seems to contain a good deal of common sense. It has more of a universal appeal in my opinion than other books of the Bible: the idea that we need to act on our values and "walk the walk". I have to wonder why Christians don't start from this book when discussing their religion in detail. Anyway, welcome to the forum and would you in the future explain your moniker, mensbattleplan? What do you mean by that?

[mensbattleplan]

The idea of Men's Battle Plan is to inspire men to reach their goals in life that line up with God's will for them. To be the father, son, husband, employee, employer, giver, volunteer they want to be. Of course, it's hard to do cuz we want to be lazy. so I use the term "Battle" cuz, for me, it's a battle.

[mensbattleplan]

NH Baritone wrote:

Recognizing I consider it all vain fantasy, I nonetheless read with bemusement the juxtaposition of this quote from a Christian and Scott's recent comments that Christianity provides for the hope of justice in the afterlife.

If the two elements are both central to Christianity, and they often are cited by a wide variety of Christians, it seems that the believers expect to avoid rather than face justice, while they watch non-believers tossed into torture chamber.

I'm sorry, but this fails miserably to meet any definition of "justice," and instead makes Christians appear to look forward to cruel whimsy.

I just listened to the latest podcast and now it makes sense that you would make this comment.

I totally agree with what you are saying. I certainly don't think that most Christians appear to look forward to cruel whimsy. I'm not sure that most Christians even think about people getting justice in hell. In fact, they are doing the opposite by trying to get others to believe in Jesus so that they will NOT go to hell.

I'm not sure if Scott reads this forum, I'll assume he does, so I don't want to offend him. However, the topic he chose, Justice, was very strange. Maybe I don't understand what he is saying and I'm not sure how strategic this answer was. I'm sure he had a good reason cuz he seems like a smart guy.

Also, I have never once in my life thought "Well, at least that terrible person will get justice in the afterlife!"

When I've been wronged in some way I just want to comforted, to get through the ordeal in a healthy way, and come out stronger because of it. If I think about the person who wronged me, I want them to be punished in this life, and I want to get them to not hurt anyone else.

If I were Scott I would have mentioned the hope and comfort we will receive in this life if we have been wronged, lonely, worried, etc. Isaiah 41:10 " fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand."

If there is one thing that atheist don't have that Christians have is this comfort in a dark time. It's a hope. Even if God isn't real then Christians still have this hope. I've been an atheist, as most people have at one point in their life, and I didn't get to have that hope that God was going to take care of me and provide for me.

I would have answered also, before ever mentioning 'Justice', that because we believe in God we also have strength to accomplish things that we could never accomplish on our own. For example, I just read a book called Chasing the Dragon by Jackie Pullinger. This woman goes into the most horrendous place you've ever heard of, full of drugs, piss, crap everywhere, child prostitution, gangs, etc. It's called The Walled City in Hong Kong. It takes her about 10 years but she gets hundreds of people off drugs and eventually ends up influencing major gang leaders and city officials to help with the problems brought by anarchy in the city.

Actually I just did a search on google and it seems as though you can read this book, free, on Google's Books: http://books.google.com/books?id=F-2b5S ... &q&f=false

[humanguy]

When I've been wronged in some way I just want to comforted, to get through the ordeal in a healthy way, and come out stronger because of it. If I think about the person who wronged me, I want them to be punished in this life, and I want to get them to not hurt anyone else.

When you've been "wronged." What does that mean, to be "wronged?"

And your idea of getting through the ordeal of being wronged in a healthy way is to want the person who wronged you to be punished in this life?

[mensbattleplan]

When you've been "wronged." What does that mean, to be "wronged?"

dictionary.com
wronged, wrong·ing, wrongs
1. To treat unjustly or injuriously.
2. To discredit unjustly; malign.
3. To treat dishonorably; violate.

And your idea of getting through the ordeal of being wronged in a healthy way is to want the person who wronged you to be punished in this life?

I don't believe that getting through an ordeal in a healthy way HAS to have the step of the perpetrator being punished but it's not unhealthy to want that. If someone murdered my 3 year old daughter, I would want the person to be punished. Wouldn't you?

[Pseudonym]

And just so I can make myself redundantly clear, let me paste the two most antithetical passages next to one another:

Paul: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

James: "Can such faith save them? ... faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."

Is it just me, or does anyone else think this a huge stretch?

Paul and James are saying completely different things. Paul's point is that salvation is through faith alone. James' point is that regardless of how "saved" you are, if you're not doing the right thing then you're useless.

Let me paraphrase...

Paul: "The cost of entry to Christianity is extremely cheap."

James: "But it's not a free pass to act like a jerk."

[humanguy]

When you've been "wronged." What does that mean, to be "wronged?"

dictionary.com
wronged, wrong·ing, wrongs
1. To treat unjustly or injuriously.
2. To discredit unjustly; malign.
3. To treat dishonorably; violate.

And your idea of getting through the ordeal of being wronged in a healthy way is to want the person who wronged you to be punished in this life?

I don't believe that getting through an ordeal in a healthy way HAS to have the step of the perpetrator being punished but it's not unhealthy to want that. If someone murdered my 3 year old daughter, I would want the person to be punished. Wouldn't you?

What wrongs have been done to you? What ordeals have you had to go through? Who are these perpetrators that you want to be punished?

[NH Baritone]

And just so I can make myself redundantly clear, let me paste the two most antithetical passages next to one another:

Paul: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

James: "Can such faith save them? ... faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."

Is it just me, or does anyone else think this a huge stretch?

Paul and James are saying completely different things. Paul's point is that salvation is through faith alone. James' point is that regardless of how "saved" you are, if you're not doing the right thing then YOUR FAITH IS useless. (Correction inserted.)

Let me paraphrase...

Paul: "The cost of entry to Christianity is extremely cheap."

James: "But it's not a free pass to act like a jerk."

One man's "huge stretch" is another man's "logic"?

Note my correction inserted above. There was no reasonable basis in the passage to transform "your faith is useless" to "you're useless."

I suggest you also read my entire post (including the elements about encouraging uncertainty and about Purgatory), along Lawrence's catalogue of the "deeds" passages from elsewhere in the Bible.

My point was that this is not settled theology, and thus doubt is warranted. Some believe no Christian ever goes to hell (the doctrine of "once a Christian, always a Christian"). There are others who believe Christians must be diligently holy lest they fall off the straight-and-narrow path and risk hellfire. (After all, James' entreaties are to DO things, not to AVOID doing things.)

By the way, is it a huge stretch to feel like, that by picking out such a small and incomplete component of my post, you were acting like a jerk?

It's kind of hard to live up to Jesus' dictum, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your father in heaven is perfect."

[mensbattleplan]

NHB, A jerk? I'm sorry man. I was just commenting on your post about the two verses contradicting each other. Maybe I got off the subject a little but I wasn't trying to be a jerk. You were trying to challenge my certainty so I was pushing back to say that this is clear for me and I am certain. The reason why someone wouldn't be certain is because they don't aren't reading the scriptures as a complete work but taking verses out of context.

You challenge my certainty by saying that the issue isn't settled. It's settled for me. I was trying to explain why it was settled and why I believe others are not correct.

Is this what you meant by me being a jerk?

[mensbattleplan]

What wrongs have been done to you? What ordeals have you had to go through? Who are these perpetrators that you want to be punished?

None really. I mean nothing big. Why do you ask?

My point was to comment about Scott's topic on the podcast "86: Where's the justice?"

[NH Baritone]

NHB, A jerk? Are you talking about when I commented on your first post where you said

If the two elements are both central to Christianity, and they often are cited by a wide variety of Christians, it seems that the believers expect to avoid rather than face justice, while they watch non-believers tossed into torture chamber.

?

If not, what did I say that causes you to call me a jerk?

Slow down, General!!!

Kindly note that I was responding to Pseudo, and not to you. You may also note that, with the word "jerk," I was vamping on a theme that he began.

Pseudo has a genuinely annoying habit (one that I've directly pointed out to him before) of singling out one small bit of a post and hammering on it, while ignoring the message in full.