Ep. 86: Where's the Justice?

[tonyenglish7]

MItch,

Yes, Tony thinks that fairness requires that the smallest sin like a single bad thought must be punshed by eternal torment in hell.

Matt 18:5 “And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6 But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
7 “Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! 8 If your hand or your foot causes you to sin cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

Matt 5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell. - Jesus


Yea, I believe Jesus over Mitch...

[tirtlegrrl]

Well then Tony, I would beware of quoting that proverb at unbelievers that goes "the fool says in his heart, 'there is no God.'" (Not saying you've actually done this, just that it would appear to be a bad idea.)

About something you said earlier: If God is "100% eternally fair," as you put it, then how could he really give people ANY way out of said "fair" punishment? Wouldn't that be against his nature? To potentially head off what I would say in your place, punishing one person for the transgression of another is not "fair." If Hell is fair because people are getting what they deserve, then Heaven directly contradicts fairness and so does the idea of substitionary penal atonement.

And I don't really see what your quote from 1 John has to do with fairness. The wicked people referred to there prefer darkness because their deeds were evil. They don't LIKE virtue. A lot of my objection to Christianity arose because the faith as I understand it appears to VIOLATE principles of justice or fairness, and if I disbelieve it's not because I want to go out and live a life of hedonism and debauchery, or even because "I want to be my own boss." It's because I am convinced that I can't avoid standing in judgment of all the belief systems out there. I CAN'T sincerely follow a religion that I think does not result in the optimum outcome for all creation, or that claims ultimate virtue yet lacks evidence for same. It's not fair to expect people to have to decide where to spend eternity based on incomplete information (like whether God has a morally sufficient reason for permitting all the evil that happens in the world). It's not "fair" (in my view) for ALL of mankind to be born with the irresistible desire to sin because of the actions of one pair of humans. It's not "fair" that natural disasters happen (as is claimed by many believers) because of the above mention actions. It's not "fair" for babies to be killed by God's command to his "chosen people". It's not "fair" for people who do wrong never to experience the consequences of their actions because they have a deathbed conversion. It's not "fair" that God would send people to eternal suffering because of the "eternal" effects their actions had, when God is going to recreate the heavens and earth, therefore effectively punishing people eternally for finite transgression. Etc.

[mitchellmckain]

Tony's last reaction is very interesting! I was just explaining what Tony is talking about to humanguy and Tony got all excited and defensive. Is it possible that Tony objects to his own beliefs? If so I cannot blaim him. I would.

Tony that is called conscience. It is God's voice in your heart. Have you silenced Him yet?

[tirtlegrrl]

tony wrote: 'Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.' - Jesus


Yea, I believe Jesus over Mitch...

For crying out loud, why? Is threatening hellfire really an effective way to discourage verbal put-downs?

In the context of evangelical theology, Jesus' statement doesn't even really make that much sense: The unsaved are in no more or less danger of the fire of hell for saying "you fool," to someone than for saying "I love you," and the saved are going to heaven even if they should let that particular insult pass their lips.

[humanguy]

Hey, Tony.

Happy Christmas, you fool.

I just made a big batch of amazing Cajun deviled eggs to go with our Christmas feast. Deviled eggs, Tony. You big ol' lovable fool.

[mitchellmckain]

tony wrote: 'Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.' - Jesus

Yea, I believe Jesus over Mitch...

For crying out loud, why? Is threatening hellfire really an effective way to discourage verbal put-downs?

In the context of evangelical theology, Jesus' statement doesn't even really make that much sense: The unsaved are in no more or less danger of the fire of hell for saying "you fool," to someone than for saying "I love you," and the saved are going to heaven even if they should let that particular insult pass their lips.

To be fair here, Tony was just quoting the Bible. But like many passages in the Bible, it does indeed lead to absurdities if you insist on understanding it legalistically. And considering how much -- how overwhelmingly much -- the Bible speaks of the difference between what is wise and what is foolish, it most certainly is not saying that one should not make such discernments and never say that something is foolish.

I don't think it is the intention of this passage to say that anyone who says "you fool" thereby goes to hell. The danger I think it speaks of is a matter of where the habits of sin inevitably lead people. To be dismissive of people for whatever reason, like many of these bad habits of thought which I would call sin, tends to inhibit your capacity to learn new things. Perhaps more importantly, like acts of hatred, it breaks connections with other people and isolates you from them, and I think that Jesus makes it quite clear that severing yourself from anyone, effectively amounts to severing yourself from God as well.

As for Tony's declaration at the end, I say AMEN! That is a sentiment that I couldn't agree more with. I believe in Jesus over Mitchell McKain also.

[tonyenglish7]

Tirtle,

It's not "fair" (in my view) for ALL of mankind to be born with the irresistible desire to sin because of the actions of one pair of humans.

What is fairness? Where does the intuition come from? What would be fair in your view or does fairness exist in an objective manner? Since you judge reality using the concept of fairness, do you see the world as fair?

[tonyenglish7]

Mitch,

Tony that is called conscience. It is God's voice in your heart. Have you silenced Him yet?

Your reaction to scripture is interesting... All you do is more personal attacks, judging my heart, yet you have no ideas, no arguments, no appeal to scripture, no real point to make? It is a good defense mechanism but without any forward progress. I wonder what your position really is? Do you have one? We were discussing Hell, something Jesus talked about and Paul didn't. (since you seem to discount Paul to some extent).

Without personally attacking me, try and make a point, let's see if you can do it. Do you think hell is real?

[cleve]

MItch,

Yes, Tony thinks that fairness requires that the smallest sin like a single bad thought must be punshed by eternal torment in hell.

Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell. [/color] - Jesus

Hi Tony,
Just was curious to know how you are planning to find a Jewish brother to call "Raca." A major prerequisite would be that he lived during Christ's time of ministry here on earth. Also, would consider yourself to be vulnerable at all when it comes to standing before the Jewish Sanhedrin council court today when such a mode of conduct was established under the law of Moses?

[tonyenglish7]

Tirtle,

For crying out loud, why? Is threatening hellfire really an effective way to discourage verbal put-downs?

In the context of evangelical theology, Jesus' statement doesn't even really make that much sense: The unsaved are in no more or less danger of the fire of hell for saying "you fool," to someone than for saying "I love you," and the saved are going to heaven even if they should let that particular insult pass their lips.

The people Jesus was addressing didn't realize who he is. They thought they were talking to a rabbi who taught what the scriptures mean. ( a mistake many including some Christians make today), But he really was the person who the scriptures were about. He was the person on which the law was inspired. Jesus was teaching that our human perspective is inadequate to understand the reality of what sin really is. How repulsive it is for a Perfect and Holy God to endure evil, even in the slightest from our perspective.

This is why a God, who is everywhere present and knows all things can say, "Depart from me, I never knew you". All sin must be destroyed and sin doesn't exist without free agent sinners. The standard is much higher than people think and that is what Jesus was teaching. He knew he was providing the door through his own sacrifice and that was the main reason for his ministry.

So it will be a fair judgment but what is fair from God's perspective is the true fair, what is fair from our perspective is skewed. Just like the inmates in a prison think they are better than the worst offenders, we think we are pretty good compared to the more evil. But our perspective is not 100% accurate

[tonyenglish7]

Cleve,

Hi Tony,
Just was curious to know how you are planning to find a Jewish brother to call "Raca." A major prerequisite would be that he lived during Christ's time of ministry here on earth. Also, would consider yourself to be vulnerable at all when it comes to standing before the Jewish Sanhedrin council court today when such a mode of conduct was established under the law of Moses?

What is your point? Is it that the context in which Jesus said this has changed and therefore the passage no longer has any meaning?

[tonyenglish7]

Humanguy,

Hey, Tony.

Happy Christmas, you fool.

I just made a big batch of amazing Cajun deviled eggs to go with our Christmas feast. Deviled eggs, Tony. You big ol' lovable fool.

I love deviled eggs... ! I have never had them Cajun, I will have to try that..

[mitchellmckain]

Tony that is called conscience. It is God's voice in your heart. Have you silenced Him yet?

Your reaction to scripture is interesting... All you do is more personal attacks, judging my heart, yet you have no ideas, no arguments, no appeal to scripture, no real point to make?

Your reaction to this is interesting and I would have thought that the reference to scripture is obvious because I have mentioned it before. But since you are having difficulties I will point it out again. It is Romans 2:15-24 showing that God speaks to everyone in their conscience and unfortunately it is a sad thing that so many legalistic religionists twist the word of God into something that hardens their heart, puts logs in their eyes and stuffs their ears so that seeing they cannot see and effectively silencing the voice of God within them so that hearing (or reading the Bible) they only hear the fairy tale that they want to believe in (again the references to the Bible here should be obvious to those who know it).

Your reaction to scripture is interesting... It is a good defense mechanism but without any forward progress.
I wonder what your position really is? Do you have one?

My reaction to scripture is right there in the defense I made of you to tirtlegrrl, but I guess you ignoring this shows your own quick draw of defense mechanisms. But your refusal to listen to what people say is why you make no forward progress in understanding them. This is why you have no idea what my position is or that I have one. All you have to do is ask any number of people who actually care and read what other people have to say and they will tell you that this is one thing that I make clear. Your difficulty is only that it does fit the categories of your canned rhetoric and that it requires you to actually listen to and learn something new.

We were discussing Hell, something Jesus talked about and Paul didn't. (since you seem to discount Paul to some extent).

Do you think hell is real?

Incorrect. Now you are confusing me with Scott in the typical way you streamline reality to fit your simple minded, one dimensional, black and white, us and them, legalistic picture of the world. I have made numerous comments on justice and heaven and hell in this very thread, which if you really had any interest in, you would have read.

I am not like Scott in regards to his almost exclusive emphasis on Jesus either. Yes it is the words of Jesus in the Bible that I connected with first -- when I was very young in fact. But I did not count myself as a Christian (and I actually called it "Pauline Christianity") until I understood the writings of the apostle Paul and if you read my oldest Christian apologetic writing linked to my relspace website entitled "What I see in Christianity" you will discover that I thought that the clarity of Paul's theology has formed the basis of a large consensus concerning what Christianity is about, however much it may not conform to the nasty ideas of your legalistic cult. But on the other hand, Paul was a man and Jesus is God, so taking Jesus' words as lens through which the rest of the Bible is understood, as Scott says he does, can hardly be very wrong.

There in that apologetic "What I see in Christianity" also and, in fact, in the majority of what I have written in this forum will find that I not only think that hell is very real but that it is the natural state of man in the afterlife. Just ask anyone, who has actually been paying attention, rather than saying "you fool" in their heart and dismissing everything that other people say. But there are certainly differences in our understandings of what hell is, to be sure. For you hell may be a place that God created to torture for eternity anyone who dares to question what Tony says is fact, but for me it is a place that people create and choose for themselves. Hell is the place that we find our heart's desire, and heaven is where we find God's desire for us. For those who do not understand the reality of human desires this hell may sound like a party, but those who know better would not think so. Christians reading and understanding the Bible should certainly have learned to mistrust their desires and seek the desire of God for them instead.

[cleve]

Cleve,

Hi Tony,
Just was curious to know how you are planning to find a Jewish brother to call "Raca." A major prerequisite would be that he lived during Christ's time of ministry here on earth. Also, would consider yourself to be vulnerable at all when it comes to standing before the Jewish Sanhedrin council court today when such a mode of conduct was established under the law of Moses?

What is your point? Is it that the context in which Jesus said this has changed and therefore the passage no longer has any meaning?

Hi again,
If I had an additional point to make, it would be that the Bible for this Gentile dispensation is probably only written for our learning and understanding as a whole. By this I mean that none of its books--except for Paul's last prison epistles--have been addressed directly to the Gentiles. The rest of the books of the Bible were written for the purpose of enlightening/building up the Jewish nation (i.e., Israel) in order that the Jews could/might serve effectively as God's chosen light for the world. They were also empowered with spiritual gifts as a light for/with the ministry of Jesus Christ.
The salvation of the Jews always has preceded the salvation of the Gentiles ... until the time period of Acts 28:28. The Jewish history books of the Bible are also useful for sorting and for better understanding of God's purpose for us Gentiles today.
Below is a recent website from YouTube that explains the "great boundary line of the Bible"--Acts 28:28:
http://www.youtube.com/user/aphesispara ... ature=mhum
At first, he may be difficult to understand, but just bear with it/him. It will make more sense after you view it several times.

[tonyenglish7]

Mitch,

For you hell may be a place that God created to torture for eternity anyone who dares to question what Tony says is fact, but for me it is a place that people create and choose for themselves. Hell is the place that we find our heart's desire, and heaven is where we find God's desire for us.

Matt 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. - Jesus

Matt 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” - Jesus

Matt 13:41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Whatever and wherever hell is, God created it and it is eternal. Jesus said there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth so I don't think it will be a party as you stated. I do think people will have freely chosen it and their hate and rejection of God will be more pure than the desire to escape the torment. But the decision is now, when we see the goodness of God, the beauty of his creation, the relationships between humans, the moral code written upon our hearts and the built in desire for meaning. Yet people love to be free from any obligation to worship God.