Proof for atheists

[StillSearching]

Somehow I don't think that's what either of them have in mind, though I'm sure there are some parallels.

[mitchellmckain]

You have to have to let that go and submit yourself to Him completely.

I would submit that an apostate was never a real Chiristian to begin with. He may have had an "experience" w/ God but has never really surrendered and been saved.

Can either (or both) of you explain to me exactly what it means to you to "surrender" or "submit" to God? Please feel free to move this to a new thread if you like.

Yes I suspect that what I and Alethia mean by this is very different. What the majority of fundie Christians seem to mean by this is to submit to their belief system and I definitely do not mean anything of the sort. Neither is the submission that I am talking about any kind of surrender of rationality, for that could never make any sense to me. However, it is possible that a recognition of the limations of rationality may be required for many highly rational people.

But before I continue, I have to ask whether you simply picked that one statement out our you read the rest of what I wrote because otherwise you are really asking me to repeat all that. But assuming you have read it and still do not understand I can try to say it differently, but what I have said already may be more clear.

Anyway, if you are looking at this surrender that I am talking as the thing you got to do so that you are saved then I have to say that this is precisely the thing I am saying you have to give up (surrender), because it is in God's hands and this is not something that you can accomplish. So you could say that essentially the surrender I am talking about is a surrender of control. You have to accept that you cannot control your own destiny because you simply lack the requred information and understanding to do so effectively. You recognize that your desires are ill informed about what is really worth pursuing and you entrust yourself to God to guide and teach you what is best. Thus you could say that you give your relationship with Him priority over the other things that you pursue. Yes these are things you can do. But do not forget that the none of these things that you do, can possibly mean that you have it made. There is no enough, there is only God trying to liberate you from the habits of thought and action which limit your awareness and free will.

It is much like the search for the truth. It is not a task you are going to complete. You could say that there is more truth in the process of looking for it than there is in any of the facts that you discover to be true. Salvation is a similar process but one of transformation rather than just understanding. What is critical is not how far you have come or how close to God you think you have become but rather what direction you are moving. If you are standing still then God isn't an effective force in your life at all. This is why there is no enough. Its not something you can accomplish but only God can accomplish if you let Him. That is something you have to choose and open yourself up to everyday and you cannot do that if think that you are done.

[StillSearching]

For me, there is a distinction between surrendering to God in the context of salvation and this concept of "surrendering your life to God" (more on this in a moment). I accept that I have no control over my final destination and destiny. I agree that if there is eternal life to be had, my works by themselves are not enough to earn it.

I do have trouble, however, when people say that they have turned their life, or a certain difficult decision, over to God. This idea of surrendering to God's will (in terms of the events and decisions of my life) seems anathema to the idea that we were created to choose our own path. In other words, why create us with control if you expect us to surrender it back to You?

Salvation is a similar process but one of transformation rather than just understanding. What is critical is not how far you have come or how close to God you think you have become but rather what direction you are moving. If you are standing still then God isn't an effective force in your life at all

I completely agree with this.

[mitchellmckain]

I do have trouble, however, when people say that they have turned their life, or a certain difficult decision, over to God. This idea of surrendering to God's will (in terms of the events and decisions of my life) seems anathema to the idea that we were created to choose our own path. In other words, why create us with control if you expect us to surrender it back to You?

Believe me, I understand totally.

It isn't a matter of expectation just a matter of reality. We choose bad habits that limit our own awareness and free will so that our choices become narrower and narrower. He would very much like to help us out of this rut to find greater awareness and free will in choices that become wider and wider. This is why it has to be our choice to accept this help because otherwise it contradict the very thing that He is trying to help us with.

But then we see religious legalists teaching something that sounds similar but it really completely different. They are telling you to surrender your mind and life to THEM, to tell you what to believe and what to do with your life, and instead of choices greater awareness and wider choices you see diminishing awareness and narrower choices. It is no wonder that in Matthew 23:15, Jesus said that the legalists of the time made people into children of hell.

So how do we see a difference between these two things that look so similar? I suggest that one is crafted into a tool that men can use for manipulation and power and the other is not. If it is empowering men then it is shutting God out and if it is opening to the will God then it is rendering the manipulators and con men powerless. But in any case the first of these is NOT asking for any surrender of you mind or your life, but is simpy trying to make you aware of how your own habits and desires may be misguided. The first is not actually demanding that do anything but seek for yourself the guidance of God.

[Alethia]

So, Mitchellmckain...... what do you think the purpose of life is? How do you view humanity in comparsion with God?

[mitchellmckain]

So, Mitchellmckain...... what do you think the purpose of life is? How do you view humanity in comparsion with God?

My view is that we are children not tools. We were not created for an end the way that tools are but as an end in ourselves as an object of love the way that children are. That means that we are free to decide what our own purpose is. This does not mean that all choices are equal. Some choices are indeed going to be more fulfilling than others and the most fulfilling is going to be a relationship with our parent, because only He can enable us to achieve all of our potentiality because I believe that being created in the image of God means that we have an infinite potentiality that reflects His infinite actuality, able to receive and learn the unlimited number of things that He can give and teach. This is the promise of eternal life, an existence where there is no end to the inspiration and gifts which God has to give us in a relationship to Him.

But such a relationship -- a love relationship is impossible without choice, and it certainly cannot be achieved by threats for that would be called rape. The alternative is to follow our hearts desire wherever it may lead. But a wise man, knowing himself, would know that this does not lead anywhere good in the end. Without the inspiration of God that comes to us either through His creation in life or through a relationship with Him in life and beyond, an eternal existence must eventually be without that which would make such an existence worthwhile, and can be called hell. So the promise of our hearts desire is one that I would forego in favor of a promise of God's desire for me, for that is what I can call heaven, no end to the inspiration, growth, excitement, creativity, love, wonder, challenges, passion, learning and worthwhile service with the one who knows and loves us more than we can possibly know and love ourselves, because only He can see what we are truly capable of.

[harryt]

Hi. I'm new on this forum and I first want to thankScott and Emery for providing a place where Christians and atheists can have civil and respectful discussions and debates. I am a Chritian and my son has embraced atheism. I have talked to him and given him every evidence and resource about God, evolution and and atheism I could find. Now it is in Gods hands. Pray that the Holy Spirit would reveal the truth to him

[humanguy]

Hi. I'm new on this forum and I first want to thankScott and Emery for providing a place where Christians and atheists can have civil and respectful discussions and debates. I am a Chritian and my son has embraced atheism. I have talked to him and given him every evidence and resource about God, evolution and and atheism I could find. Now it is in Gods hands. Pray that the Holy Spirit would reveal the truth to him

That's very open-minded of you.

Okay, okay, I'm leaving.