mikedsjr wrote:ScottBarger wrote:I should also point out that I am picking up on a sentiment from you that unless someone believes a certain theology and/or embraces a certain interpretation of the text they are not "in." Is this true? Do you think that bad theology and faulty interpretation excludes a person from God's saving grace? If so, I should also ask, what is it that a person must believe in order to be saved? How must they interpret the text in order to be saved?
The sentiment that someone has to believe a certain set of beliefs is not new, which certainly requires a certain interpretation. I don't beleive the Reformed/Calvinistic view of soteriology is the only way. In the true sense of the term, That is what a hyper-calvinist is. I'm not a hyper-calvinist. I don't beleive, "If you don't beleive the 5 points of calvinism then you're going to hell". If that was the case, then i would be saying Tony's going to hell. I do believe Tony's molinist stance is extremely weak to defend, but that doesn't equate to poor doctrine of why a person is a sinner, deserving of hell and needs Christ atoning sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins. His theology of how a person is saved is solid. But the molinism portion is extremely philosophical and biblically unfounded, but I'm not going to challenge him on his molinism unless he was to have a direct discussion about it.
So what DO you have to believe in order to avoid hell? You have told me directly in the past on more than one occasion that you think I am going to hell, why is that? What is it that I don't believe that is sending me to hell?
mikedsjr wrote:So "Do i think that bad theology and faulty interpretations excludes a person from God's saving grace"? If we are referring to the law and gospel, then yes. If we believe bad theology in terms of the gospel, then its a false belief.
So what is it that we have to believe about the gospel and the law that saves us from hell? What is it in MY thinking about these subjects that is damning me?
mikedsjr wrote:When you make statements like, "This would be why it is suspect, but i don't think, for me, when i'm faced with this reality that maybe the mantra isn't found in this book or maybe the stakes aren't as high or don't look the same as I've been told." or "i think it bares pointing out that when the bible was written it was written where Christians were in the minority and they are being persecuted by a really mean people.", then it shows me that you need to re-examine your steps with what the Bible says. You're statements are unfounded.
mikedsjr wrote:Read the book of Acts. Read the epistles. Read the entire books and don't stop. See the flow.
I have, and I do. All the time.
mikedsjr wrote:You refer to persecution of the early Christians as if you're dealing with black liberation theology coming out from slavery.
mikedsjr wrote:The Paul knew what he was getting into. He and Peter's responses in the epistles had nothing to do with teaching people that eventually the mean people will eventually get theres. Paul and Peter's responses were to teach CHRISTIANS, to live sanctified lives because they have been saved. Live like it and proclaim the good news.
I was thinking more of the book of Revelation, but I do see encouragement throughout the entire bible that is motivated by the promise that God will judge the wicked. I am not sure that all wicked people are the same, nor do I see anywhere in the Bible that says that they are. I wonder, I am not sure, but is it possible that in God's eyes there really is a difference between a really "good" person who dies having never heard the Gospel, and a child molester?
mikedsjr wrote:In the transcript that i posted, this exchange happenedEmery:
If God doesn't have the shortsightedness that Scott Barger has, then why does He need to see those people suffer forever?
For me, that is a tough one for me to talk about. Let's just assume that is the way it work - I don't know that is the case and that the literal interpretation is what ought to be said - even if it is, i suppose the party line answer is God is holy, perfect and just and even the smallest offense against Him is worthy of the worst kind of judgement. But i disagree with that because it doesn't fit with the teachings of Jesus, to me.
Since you are a pastor, this should be like a softball question for you. But you swung and hit it right back to the pitcher. You did hit it, but not without getting thrown out at first.
What would I have said? "We are sinners. We are born sinners. We all sin. The Bible says in Romans 3 we hate God. That Bible says we want nothing to do with God. The Bible also says that the wages of our sins is death. That is a court room sentence in God's court. The sentencing phase of the guilty is short. There is not one single person born from the line of Adam that is not guilty. It comes down to one thing. We are all deserving of the lake of fire by God's standard. What is God's standards for us? The 10 commandments. I could ask you questions about whether you have broken any of these laws and from your own lips you would admit guilt of breaking God's law. That's why Christ came. He didn't come to show us a moral way to live. He said, "I come to seek and to save that which was lost" or as 1 Timothy puts it, "Christ Jesus came into this world to save sinners". He came to be the sacrificial lamb for the sins of those who repent and believe on Him. And unless a person repents and believe in Jesus the Messiah for the forgiveness of sins, then that person will continue on the pat they are already on. They aren't predestined to hell. Every single person is worthy of hell due to their sinning. I honestly don't want to see you go to hell. Honestly I don't. Think about it.
But this does not answer Emery's question, the question was, "Why does God need to see those people suffer forever?" Is it just, fair, and equitable that an apparently innocent person, or at least from human perspective a pretty decent person, be TORTURED FOREVER because they never even hear of Jesus and die? Emery was getting to this point, I think, why are BILLIONS of people going to be TORTURED FOREVER? Think about it. Billions of people.
Imagine someone coming to your house and arresting one of your children and then taking them to a prison where they are tortured all day every day for the rest of their lives. Does any human deserve that? Can you imagine a crime for which this is fair and just punishment? People who embrace lake-of-fire-conscious-damnation-forever-and-ever-and-ever-and-ever soteriology would say that this miserable torturous fate absolutely pales in comparison to the hellish experience waiting for the mother of three and the ignorant farmer and the abused teenager and the retarded prostitute who die without ever hearing about the Gospel of Jesus. I was pushing back against that kind of theology.
Maybe it is my ignorance, or arrogance, or whatever, but I cannot see justice in that.
mikedsjr wrote:I tried to choose my words carefully in this last paragraph, because I don't believe scripture points to altar calls or persuasion as ways to bring people to Christ. We are his workman to do the proclamation. God does the saving, since man can't save himself. How can he. He hates God and doesn't seek God. This is what is different about Christianity and all other religions. God saves people. People don't save themselves. Its all God's glory.
So then I don't have to believe a correct theology since it is God who saves me and not my belief system? Or are you saying that the person who has been hand picked by God to be one of the very, very few that avoid being tortured by God, forever, will by virtue of God's action just automatically believe correct theology?
So again I will ask, what must I do to be saved? What am I not doing that Mike thinks I should be doing? What must I believe that I am not believing? What is missing in my life that is damning me to hell?