Ep. 86: Where's the Justice?

[ScottBarger]

I should also point out that I am picking up on a sentiment from you that unless someone believes a certain theology and/or embraces a certain interpretation of the text they are not "in." Is this true? Do you think that bad theology and faulty interpretation excludes a person from God's saving grace? If so, I should also ask, what is it that a person must believe in order to be saved? How must they interpret the text in order to be saved?

The sentiment that someone has to believe a certain set of beliefs is not new, which certainly requires a certain interpretation. I don't beleive the Reformed/Calvinistic view of soteriology is the only way. In the true sense of the term, That is what a hyper-calvinist is. I'm not a hyper-calvinist. I don't beleive, "If you don't beleive the 5 points of calvinism then you're going to hell". If that was the case, then i would be saying Tony's going to hell. I do believe Tony's molinist stance is extremely weak to defend, but that doesn't equate to poor doctrine of why a person is a sinner, deserving of hell and needs Christ atoning sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins. His theology of how a person is saved is solid. But the molinism portion is extremely philosophical and biblically unfounded, but I'm not going to challenge him on his molinism unless he was to have a direct discussion about it.

So what DO you have to believe in order to avoid hell? You have told me directly in the past on more than one occasion that you think I am going to hell, why is that? What is it that I don't believe that is sending me to hell?

So "Do i think that bad theology and faulty interpretations excludes a person from God's saving grace"? If we are referring to the law and gospel, then yes. If we believe bad theology in terms of the gospel, then its a false belief.

So what is it that we have to believe about the gospel and the law that saves us from hell? What is it in MY thinking about these subjects that is damning me?

When you make statements like, "This would be why it is suspect, but i don't think, for me, when i'm faced with this reality that maybe the mantra isn't found in this book or maybe the stakes aren't as high or don't look the same as I've been told." or "i think it bares pointing out that when the bible was written it was written where Christians were in the minority and they are being persecuted by a really mean people.", then it shows me that you need to re-examine your steps with what the Bible says. You're statements are unfounded.

How so?

Read the book of Acts. Read the epistles. Read the entire books and don't stop. See the flow.

I have, and I do. All the time.

You refer to persecution of the early Christians as if you're dealing with black liberation theology coming out from slavery.

False.

The Paul knew what he was getting into. He and Peter's responses in the epistles had nothing to do with teaching people that eventually the mean people will eventually get theres. Paul and Peter's responses were to teach CHRISTIANS, to live sanctified lives because they have been saved. Live like it and proclaim the good news.

I was thinking more of the book of Revelation, but I do see encouragement throughout the entire bible that is motivated by the promise that God will judge the wicked. I am not sure that all wicked people are the same, nor do I see anywhere in the Bible that says that they are. I wonder, I am not sure, but is it possible that in God's eyes there really is a difference between a really "good" person who dies having never heard the Gospel, and a child molester?

In the transcript that i posted, this exchange happened

Emery:
If God doesn't have the shortsightedness that Scott Barger has, then why does He need to see those people suffer forever?

Scott:
For me, that is a tough one for me to talk about. Let's just assume that is the way it work - I don't know that is the case and that the literal interpretation is what ought to be said - even if it is, i suppose the party line answer is God is holy, perfect and just and even the smallest offense against Him is worthy of the worst kind of judgement. But i disagree with that because it doesn't fit with the teachings of Jesus, to me.

Since you are a pastor, this should be like a softball question for you. But you swung and hit it right back to the pitcher. You did hit it, but not without getting thrown out at first.

What would I have said? "We are sinners. We are born sinners. We all sin. The Bible says in Romans 3 we hate God. That Bible says we want nothing to do with God. The Bible also says that the wages of our sins is death. That is a court room sentence in God's court. The sentencing phase of the guilty is short. There is not one single person born from the line of Adam that is not guilty. It comes down to one thing. We are all deserving of the lake of fire by God's standard. What is God's standards for us? The 10 commandments. I could ask you questions about whether you have broken any of these laws and from your own lips you would admit guilt of breaking God's law. That's why Christ came. He didn't come to show us a moral way to live. He said, "I come to seek and to save that which was lost" or as 1 Timothy puts it, "Christ Jesus came into this world to save sinners". He came to be the sacrificial lamb for the sins of those who repent and believe on Him. And unless a person repents and believe in Jesus the Messiah for the forgiveness of sins, then that person will continue on the pat they are already on. They aren't predestined to hell. Every single person is worthy of hell due to their sinning. I honestly don't want to see you go to hell. Honestly I don't. Think about it.

But this does not answer Emery's question, the question was, "Why does God need to see those people suffer forever?" Is it just, fair, and equitable that an apparently innocent person, or at least from human perspective a pretty decent person, be TORTURED FOREVER because they never even hear of Jesus and die? Emery was getting to this point, I think, why are BILLIONS of people going to be TORTURED FOREVER? Think about it. Billions of people.

Imagine someone coming to your house and arresting one of your children and then taking them to a prison where they are tortured all day every day for the rest of their lives. Does any human deserve that? Can you imagine a crime for which this is fair and just punishment? People who embrace lake-of-fire-conscious-damnation-forever-and-ever-and-ever-and-ever soteriology would say that this miserable torturous fate absolutely pales in comparison to the hellish experience waiting for the mother of three and the ignorant farmer and the abused teenager and the retarded prostitute who die without ever hearing about the Gospel of Jesus. I was pushing back against that kind of theology.

Maybe it is my ignorance, or arrogance, or whatever, but I cannot see justice in that.

I tried to choose my words carefully in this last paragraph, because I don't believe scripture points to altar calls or persuasion as ways to bring people to Christ. We are his workman to do the proclamation. God does the saving, since man can't save himself. How can he. He hates God and doesn't seek God. This is what is different about Christianity and all other religions. God saves people. People don't save themselves. Its all God's glory.

So then I don't have to believe a correct theology since it is God who saves me and not my belief system? Or are you saying that the person who has been hand picked by God to be one of the very, very few that avoid being tortured by God, forever, will by virtue of God's action just automatically believe correct theology?

So again I will ask, what must I do to be saved? What am I not doing that Mike thinks I should be doing? What must I believe that I am not believing? What is missing in my life that is damning me to hell?

[mikedsjr]

What is essential for salvation?
1. God is triune: The Father is God. The Son is God. The Holy Spirit is God. The Father is not the Son. The Son is not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the Father. There is one God.
or as Grudem puts it
A) God is three persons.
B) Each Person is fully God.
C) There is one God.
If you remove A, you get modalism.
If you remove B, you get Arianism.
If you remove C, you get polytheism.

2. Human depravity: All humans born of Adam of sinners. Adam was not created in this state, but disobeyed the command of God (sin) and thus caused man's depravity. what is sin? I define it as not giving glory to God in what you do by obeying His commands.
3. Hell: Hell is real and because of our depravity we are all guilty before God. If we die in this state, we will get our justice. Hell was created for the devil and his followers.
4. Christ's virgin birth: As Luke and Matthew attest to, Mary became pregnant via the Holy Spirit. Thus Jesus was not born of Adam, in which sin is passed down through the father.
5. Christ's deity: Jesus was born fully God. He did not lose his deity. Phillipian 2, Paul teaches the Phillipians to humble themselves to be faithful to Christ as Christ humbled himself to be faithful to his Father. Jesus still demonstrated his Godly powers on earth an never was missing his Godly powers.
6. Christ's humanity: Christ was born of flesh and was fully human too. Jesus was tempted but never sinned. Temptation doesn't equate to sinning. He was tempted in every way that man was, but did not sin.
7. Christ's sinlessness: In everything Jesus did, he never once sinned.
8. Christ's atoning death: Christ's purpose was to come to earth was to become the atoning sacrifice for sins. In all he did, this was primary goal.
9. Christ's bodily resurrection: Without his human body resurrection, there would be no conquering of death and hell. His resurrection makes his atoning sacrifice a living sacrifice that never ceases to cover sins. The sacrifices in the OT were not capable of doing this since those sacrifices became dead and required a new sacrifice to be done each event requiring forgiveness of sins.
10. The necessity of grace and faith: No one is capable of desiring to be saved, except God grace is given to them. And through the man's own actions, one must repent and believe in Christ as Lord and Savior.

I believe there are some more but this is a start. I think this would be agreed upon by Tony.

[ScottBarger]

Thanks for the reply. Pretty orthodox list there, and one that I pretty much accept. I have 3 questions though.

First, do I have to believe every part of the whole list in order to be saved? For example, can I believe everything you listed except for your statement "No one is capable of desiring to be saved, except that God's grace is given to them" and still be saved?

Second, I think you have mentioned in the past that you subscribe to "Sola Scriptura," if this is the case, where in the Bible does it say that I must believe this whole list in order to be saved?

Third, if it is true that I must believe all of these doctrines in order to be saved, doesn't this amount to a salvation by "works of the mind"?

[mitchellmckain]

What is essential for salvation?
1. God is triune: The Father is God. The Son is God. The Holy Spirit is God. The Father is not the Son. The Son is not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the Father. There is one God.
or as Grudem puts it
A) God is three persons.
B) Each Person is fully God.
C) There is one God.
If you remove A, you get modalism.
If you remove B, you get Arianism.
If you remove C, you get polytheism.

2. Human depravity: All humans born of Adam of sinners. Adam was not created in this state, but disobeyed the command of God (sin) and thus caused man's depravity. what is sin? I define it as not giving glory to God in what you do by obeying His commands.
3. Hell: Hell is real and because of our depravity we are all guilty before God. If we die in this state, we will get our justice. Hell was created for the devil and his followers.
4. Christ's virgin birth: As Luke and Matthew attest to, Mary became pregnant via the Holy Spirit. Thus Jesus was not born of Adam, in which sin is passed down through the father.
5. Christ's deity: Jesus was born fully God. He did not lose his deity. Phillipian 2, Paul teaches the Phillipians to humble themselves to be faithful to Christ as Christ humbled himself to be faithful to his Father. Jesus still demonstrated his Godly powers on earth an never was missing his Godly powers.
6. Christ's humanity: Christ was born of flesh and was fully human too. Jesus was tempted but never sinned. Temptation doesn't equate to sinning. He was tempted in every way that man was, but did not sin.
7. Christ's sinlessness: In everything Jesus did, he never once sinned.
8. Christ's atoning death: Christ's purpose was to come to earth was to become the atoning sacrifice for sins. In all he did, this was primary goal.
9. Christ's bodily resurrection: Without his human body resurrection, there would be no conquering of death and hell. His resurrection makes his atoning sacrifice a living sacrifice that never ceases to cover sins. The sacrifices in the OT were not capable of doing this since those sacrifices became dead and required a new sacrifice to be done each event requiring forgiveness of sins.
10. The necessity of grace and faith: No one is capable of desiring to be saved, except God grace is given to them. And through the man's own actions, one must repent and believe in Christ as Lord and Savior.

I believe there are some more but this is a start. I think this would be agreed upon by Tony.

And what if people believe in the the Trinity, the universality of human sinfulness, hell, the virgin birth, that Christ was fully god and fully man, Christ's sinlessness, the atonement of the crucifixion, bodily resurrection and the necessity of grace and faith, but they do not understanding these the way that you do or how you explain them here? If you do not require that, then these things are indeed definative of Christian belief, but I think limiting God's power to save us to these beliefs is rather presumptuous. If you further limit God's power to your understanding of these then you have made salvation into a mike shaped door and appointed yourself its guardian, and then not only does Jesus' condemnation in Matthew 23:13 apply to you, but you have effectively made God your tool or a dog at your beck and call. I think my understanding of these 10 points is most certainly the correct way and that yours (except for 1, 6 and 7 as you have stated them) is completely wrong, BUT I am not God and so I must recognize my limitations and in those limitations are possibilities for error however unlikely it seems to me. Some of these things, let alone YOUR or MY understanding of them, are NOT in the Bible and in fact this whole idea that you can say who is saved and who is damned in ANY way (whether by what they do or believe) is proscribed by the Bible (Romans 10).

[mikedsjr]

Thanks for the reply. Pretty orthodox list there, and one that I pretty much accept. I have 3 questions though.

First, do I have to believe every part of the whole list in order to be saved? For example, can I believe everything you listed except for your statement "No one is capable of desiring to be saved, except that God's grace is given to them" and still be saved?

Second, I think you have mentioned in the past that you subscribe to "Sola Scriptura," if this is the case, where in the Bible does it say that I must believe this whole list in order to be saved?

Third, if it is true that I must believe all of these doctrines in order to be saved, doesn't this amount to a salvation by "works of the mind"?

1) The statement you quoted from me was of myself explaining a truth about grace. It certainly isn't necessary and I over-emphasized the point of grace. It's a true statement found from scripture and is absolutely what does happen for anyone to be saved, but it isn't necessary. Just like I wanted to put other things that are true and must be true for the Bible to be consistent.

2)I do believe Sola Scriptura. As James White states,

Sola Scriptura states that the Scriptures, and the Scriptures alone, are sufficient to function as the regula fide, the "rule of faith" for the Church. All that one must believe to be a Christian is found in Scripture and in no other source.

and more specifically,

The Bible claims to be the sole and sufficient rule of faith for the Christian Church. The Scriptures are not in need of any supplement. Their authority comes from their nature as God-breathed revelation. Their authority is not dependent upon man, Church or council. The Scriptures are self-consistent, self-interpreting, and self-authenticating. The Christian Church looks at the Scriptures as the only and sufficient rule of faith and the Church is always subject to the Word, and is constantly reformed thereby.

Both of these statements would be sufficient for the Arminian or Calvinist believers. Lists are made to demonstrate in a systematic way what scripture tells us on subjects like justification in Christ and typically are developed to dispell heresies.

3) No, it does not amount to salvation by "works of the mind". It would be absolutely impossible for you to come to that conclusion if you re-read my list, especially with the one quote that you questioned if one had to believe it in your first question. As Romans 3 expresses, No one seeks God. No one loves God. So how is it even possible for anyone to be truly saved, except God's grace draws them to Him first. And those whom He draws will never be taken from His hand as John 6 tells us. That's what predestination is about in the Bible. So if you want to say that man after he has been drawn by God's irresistable grace is being saved by the "works of the mind", then they are partially wrong, because it is impossible to be saved by the "works of the mind" without God's grace first. Thus salvation is of the Lord's doing.

[mikedsjr]

Mitch, you limit your own god because you are the deciding fact in your molded god. I have expressed what scripture states.

[ScottBarger]

Mike,

Thanks for your answers. Another question regarding one of your quotes from White, if you don't mind. Where in scripture does it claim to be the sole and sufficient rule for the Church?

And one other question regarding "works of the mind." In your opinion, is it possible for a person to be truly saved (according to your definition of the term) and then stop believing in one of the doctrines you listed?

[mitchellmckain]

Mitch, you limit your own god because you are the deciding fact in your molded god. I have expressed what scripture states.

No, Mike, I do not limit God or mold God or use Him but repeatedly declare that this is impossible. You limit your god because you equate His word and His understanding with your words and understanding. But no matter how much you pretend otherwise, you do not speak for God. Your words are not the word of God. If people want to know what God says, I just point them to the Bible. If they want to know what I understand from the Bible then I explain it, but I never pretend that my words are the words of God as you do.

Your pretense is so absurd that it amounts to an out and out lie. The word "Trinity" is not in the Bible. Your words are not in the Bible. Stop lying to yourself.

[Pseudonym]

Where in scripture does it claim to be the sole and sufficient rule for the Church?

I'm curious to know the answer to that one too.

[mikedsjr]

Scott,

I'm not sure this helps, but I've gone through 2 books of scripture to point out that apostles pointed to scripture as the basis of truth and/or why it is the sufficient rule for the Church. I've added just a little bit of Mark, since it is your favorite book, to show that scripture is used by Mark to prove himself trustworthy as well as the facts of what happened. The new testament authors point to facts. They point to scripture to defend themselves. Their example is for us to follow on how to handle scripture.

(ALL FROM THE ESV)
Mark 1:1-3, 40-44

1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. 2 As it is written in Isaiah the prophet,

“Behold, I send my messenger before your face,
who will prepare your way,
3 the voice of one crying in the wilderness:
‘Prepare the way of the Lord,
make his paths straight,’”

40 And a leper came to him, imploring him, and kneeling said to him, “If you will, you can make me clean.” 41 Moved with pity, he stretched out his hand and touched him and said to him, “I will; be clean.” 42 And immediately the leprosy left him, and he was made clean. 43 And Jesus sternly charged him and sent him away at once, 44 and said to him, “See that you say nothing to anyone, but go, show yourself to the priest and offer for your cleansing what Moses commanded, for a proof to them.”

Mark 2:1,2, 23-28

1 And when he returned to Capernaum after some days, it was reported that he was at home. 2 And many were gathered together, so that there was no more room, not even at the door. And he was preaching the word to them.
23 One Sabbath he was going through the grainfields, and as they made their way, his disciples began to pluck heads of grain. 24 And the Pharisees were saying to him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?” 25 And he said to them, “Have you never read what David did, when he was in need and was hungry, he and those who were with him: 26 how he entered the house of God, in the time of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the bread of the Presence, which it is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and also gave it to those who were with him?” 27 And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28 So the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath.”
Mark 3:1-6
3:1 Again he entered the synagogue, and a man was there with a withered hand. 2 And they watched Jesus, to see whether he would heal him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse him. 3 And he said to the man with the withered hand, “Come here.” 4 And he said to them, “Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save life or to kill?” But they were silent. 5 And he looked around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, and said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was restored. 6 The Pharisees went out and immediately held counsel with the Herodians against him, how to destroy him.

2 Timothy 1:8-13

8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, 9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, 10 and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 for which I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher, 12 which is why I suffer as I do. But I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed, and I am convinced that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me. 13 Follow the pattern of the sound words that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 14 By the Holy Spirit who dwells within us, guard the good deposit entrusted to you.

2 Tim 2:1-2, 8-10, 14-18

1 You then, my child, be strengthened by the grace that is in Christ Jesus, 2 and what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

8 Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel, 9 for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound! 10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

14 Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. 16 But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, 17 and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened.

2 Timothy 3: 15-17

15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

2 Tim 4: 1-5
1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. 5 As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

1 Peter 1:10-15, 22-25

Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, 11 inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. 12 It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look. 13 Therefore, preparing your minds for action, and being sober-minded, set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, 15 but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”

22 Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart, 23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God; 24 for
“All flesh is like grass
and all its glory like the flower of grass.
The grass withers,
and the flower falls,
25 but the word of the Lord remains forever.”

And this word is the good news that was preached to you.

1 Peter 2:4-9
4 As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, 5 you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For it stands in Scripture:
“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone,
a cornerstone chosen and precious,
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
7 So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe,
“The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,”
8 and
“A stone of stumbling,
and a rock of offense.”

They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

1 Peter 3:5-7

5 For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands, 6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. And you are her children, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening. 7 Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you [1] of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.

1 Peter 4:9-11

Show hospitality to one another without grumbling. 10 As each has received a gift, use it to serve one another, as good stewards of God's varied grace: 11 whoever speaks, as one who speaks oracles of God; whoever serves, as one who serves by the strength that God supplies—in order that in everything God may be glorified through Jesus Christ. To him belong glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

[ScottBarger]

Mike,

Thanks for your answers. A couple more questions, if you don't mind.

First, the passages you cite above do imply a level of authority for scripture yet there is no explicit "sola scriptura" teaching in the verses you mention. Do you think that "sola scriptura" is a doctrine built on explicit statements of scripture or implicit teachings of scripture? Or is there something I am missing?

Second, do you think that terms like "word of truth" (2 TIm 2:14) must be equated with "scripture"?

Third, regarding implicit vs. explicit teachings and the concept of heresy. Do you think doctrines built on implicit teachings should be as weighty as those built on explicit teachings?

[mikedsjr]

Mike,

Thanks for your answers. A couple more questions, if you don't mind.

First, the passages you cite above do imply a level of authority for scripture yet there is no explicit "sola scriptura" teaching in the verses you mention. Do you think that "sola scriptura" is a doctrine built on explicit statements of scripture or implicit teachings of scripture? Or is there something I am missing?

Second, do you think that terms like "word of truth" (2 TIm 2:14) must be equated with "scripture"?

Third, regarding implicit vs. explicit teachings and the concept of heresy. Do you think doctrines built on implicit teachings should be as weighty as those built on explicit teachings?

1) I would agree that it is built on explicit statements of scripture. This isn't to say that someone who doesn't believe in Sola Scriptura will be lost in hell. The issue that Sola Scriptura, from my opinion, protect is context and consistency of scripture.

2) Yes. The "word of truth" is centered on the truth of the gospel. Every book of the Bible has the gospel message as the focal point. Genesis brings creation, humanity, the fall, punishment and the promise of a redeemer through the seed. The list goes on all the way to Revelations where every knee shall bow and confess Jesus is Lord before judgements have come to pass with the new heaven and new earths are created and all who believed shall live forever.

[mikedsjr]

Mitch, you limit your own god because you are the deciding fact in your molded god. I have expressed what scripture states.

No, Mike, I do not limit God or mold God or use Him but repeatedly declare that this is impossible. You limit your god because you equate His word and His understanding with your words and understanding. But no matter how much you pretend otherwise, you do not speak for God. Your words are not the word of God. If people want to know what God says, I just point them to the Bible. If they want to know what I understand from the Bible then I explain it, but I never pretend that my words are the words of God as you do.

Your pretense is so absurd that it amounts to an out and out lie. The word "Trinity" is not in the Bible. Your words are not in the Bible. Stop lying to yourself.

First, I apologize. I was intentionally being mean spirited and i was wrong.

Second, The concept of the Trinity in scripture is not my idea and has been around for centuries to defend against the heresy of Arianism.

The Father is God
Matt 6:9,10
9 Pray then like this:
“Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
10 Your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.

Matt 11:25
25 At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;

Psa 89: 27,28
27 He shall cry out to me: Thou art my father: my God, and the support of my salvation. 28 And I will make him my firstborn, high above the kings of the earth.

The Son is God
John 8:58
58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

John 1:1-5
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

Mark 2:5-11
5 And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” 6 Now some of the scribes were sitting there, questioning in their hearts, 7 “Why does this man speak like that? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?” 8 And immediately Jesus, perceiving in his spirit that they thus questioned within themselves, said to them, “Why do you question these things in your hearts? 9 Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise, take up your bed and walk’? 10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he said to the paralytic— 11 “I say to you, rise, pick up your bed, and go home.” 12 And he rose and immediately picked up his bed and went out before them all, so that they were all amazed and glorified God, saying, “We never saw anything like this!”

The Spirit is God
Act 5:3-4
3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? 4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

Psa 143:10
10 Teach me to do your will, for you are my God; may your good Spirit lead me on level ground.

1 Cor 2:10-13
10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

All three are God, The Father is not the Son, The Son is not the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. There is one God
Gen 1:26
26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

Matt 3:16-17
16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; 17 and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”

Matt 28:19
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

2 Cor 13:14
14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

[mitchellmckain]

Second, The concept of the Trinity in scripture is not my idea and has been around for centuries to defend against the heresy of Arianism.

Mike, you misunderstand. I am Trinitarian. I know the arguments and I accept them. But none of that changes the fact that the doctrine of the Trinity is NOT in the scriptures. It is a conclusion we draw from the scriptures but it is not a conclusion that everyone draws from the scriptures. The creeds defined Christianity with statements that do support the Trinity so that has indeed become part of the consensus definition of Christian belief. But Christians differ in regards to the other conclusions that they draw from the scriptures.

I think that the doctrine of the Trinity is the understanding of God and Christology that is most consistent with accepting the full canon of the Bible. But the canon is also not in the Bible. None of the writings in the Bible actually say which writings should be considered authoritative. This is another consensus arrived at in the 4th century eccumenical councils. So no matter how you look at it, to embrace the largest consensus upon what it means to be Christian forces one to acknowledge that what one believes is NOT exclusively in the Bible alone.

Christianity has developed and diversified and as a Protestant I see the 5 solas as central to an understanding of the Christian faith and so these are further additions to the beliefs of Protestants that are NOT IN THE BIBLE. Take Sola Scriptura -- whereby Protestants declared that God's communication with man did not depend on a human authority such as the Vatican. No explanation I have heard or even the explanations I have made of Sola Scriptura is in the Bible. Furthermore one must be careful in explaining what this means because otherwise it is easily inconsistent with the facts of Christian belief that I have mentioned here.