Ep. 88: Objective meaning, value, and purpose

[scomsjw]

There is a podcast named "Unbelievable" from Premier Christian Radio that is worth listening to. They have had some top notch apologists on that show - Plantinger, Swinburne, Craig and others. They also have a call-in section of the show where (mainly christian) listeners call in. The people calling in are often unintentionally amusing; one woman complained that Dawkins is always debating intellectuals as if he is too lofty and superior to argue with uneducated people. I find when I listen to these shows that atheist arguments usually make most sense to me. I like to think that I am sufficiently open-minded to be persuaded by a good argument but I just don't find the apologists arguments to be that strong. I used to be very religious and I would very much like the christian claims to be true but, I can't help it, the arguments just don't convince me.

There's a guy on the Unbelievable show named Dave Robertson. He has appeared a number of times. He seems like a British version of Tony. One of the shows is called "Grill an Atheist" which is basically an hour of this guy getting pummelled by questions about the problem of evil and so on. I thought that I had listened to it objectively without bias and that, though charming, he had not performed well. He did not seem to have very convincing answers to me. But the christian callers loved him. They obviously heard the same show with different ears. Dave Robertson expressed pretty hard-line and predictable views on homosexuality, abortion, assisted suicide, marriage and so on. I found it quite hard to think of him as a "good" man. And at the end of the show there was this bewildering, jokey wrap-up where he praised the intelligence of all his questioners and his god for giving him all the answers.

I was left with that same odd feeling, that I couldn't tell whether he was sincere or not. He more or less told homosexuals that they should never have sex for fear of going to hell - then joked about how hot his coffee was and whether that had been as "grilled" as he had been. Very odd.

[tonyenglish7]

Where do I hear that show? Is it on podcast?

[tonyenglish7]

Mitch,

No I don't follow the teachings and doctrines of men, and I don't look to a herd for justification. I read the Bible for myself and do my own thinking about what God is trying to communicate without limiting Him to what supposed human authorities have to say.

2 Peter 1:19And we have the word of prophecy made more sure; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day-star arise in your hearts: 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation. 21For no prophecy ever came by the will of man: but men spake from God, being moved by the Holy Spirit.

And

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
4:1 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry."

So, since you have no authority to point to except your own mitchistic mind, how do you deal with the above verses?


.

[humanguy]

Tony, could you explain what these Bible quotes mean? I've read them twice and I can't make any sense of them. Thanks.

[tonyenglish7]

Humanguy,

Tony, could you explain what these Bible quotes mean? I've read them twice and I can't make any sense of them. Thanks.

Yes, these are references to the bible being the word of God and useful for both knowing the truth and proclaiming it to others. Mitch was saying that he bows to no authority but just goes on what he thinks of on his own. These scriptures also show how in the last days, men will change the gospel to something less offensive and make it more of a myth to live by. This is what it seems Mitch is doing as well. Mitch condemns me for preaching the gospel because he thinks that entails my judgment of others, but every man either knows he is already guilty or he has convinced himself there is no need for salvation, so I cannot help the latter, but I have a message for the former, and neither Mitch nor any other person will stop me from preaching the gospel of salvation to any who will listen.

Here are a few more...

Jude 3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.

1 Cor 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews (religious)* and foolishness to Gentiles, (Philosophers)* 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength.
26 Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him.
*my addition

Matt 13:16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17 For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

[marcuspnw]

Mitch condemns me for preaching the gospel because he thinks that entails my judgment of others, but every man either knows he is already guilty or he has convinced himself there is no need for salvation, so I cannot help the latter, but I have a message for the former, and neither Mitch nor any other person will stop me from preaching the gospel of salvation to any who will listen.

Are you being fair? I don't believe Mitch is condemning you for preaching THE gospel but rather that you have been preaching YOUR gospel. His contention, I think, is that these are not the same. If your conversation focused on the Christian gospel of the healthy and loving potential relationship that can exist between human beings and God as children and Father via Christ Jesus rather than the idols that we humans so often like to portray as God to satisfy our own desires, then I don't think he would be challenging you. Or at least, you'd be able to see where the sticking points are between the two of you. But he hasn't given up on you so relax, Tony, and try to see it from his perspective. I wouldn't blame you if you felt overwhelmed at times as you attract a wide variety of comments from a number of forum participants.

[humanguy]

Humanguy,

Tony, could you explain what these Bible quotes mean? I've read them twice and I can't make any sense of them. Thanks.

Yes, these are references to the bible being the word of God and useful for both knowing the truth and proclaiming it to others. Mitch was saying that he bows to no authority but just goes on what he thinks of on his own. These scriptures also show how in the last days, men will change the gospel to something less offensive and make it more of a myth to live by. This is what it seems Mitch is doing as well. Mitch condemns me for preaching the gospel because he thinks that entails my judgment of others, but every man either knows he is already guilty or he has convinced himself there is no need for salvation, so I cannot help the latter, but I have a message for the former, and neither Mitch nor any other person will stop me from preaching the gospel of salvation to any who will listen.

"Every man either knows he is guilty or he has convinced himself there is no need for salvation." Guilty of what, being born, being alive, being a human? What? Guilty of what, Tony, what?

Maybe you should start by telling us what terrible thing it is that you're guilty of. Why is it that religion insists on trying to make people feel so lousy?

And why in the Sam Hill should any healthy happy well-adjusted person go around thinking that he needs "salvation?" Why?

Can't you see how crazy all this seems?

[Christoff]

No I don't follow the teachings and doctrines of men, and I don't look to a herd for justification. I read the Bible for myself and do my own thinking about what God is trying to communicate

Isn't the Bible itself a composition of "teachings and doctrines of men"?
Isn't Mitch doing exactly that - isn't he following the herd's concensus (that the Bible is the supposed Word of God)?

So isn't he doing exactly the thing which he accuses Tony (and the rest) of doing?

[StillSearching]

"Every man either knows he is guilty or he has convinced himself there is no need for salvation." Guilty of what, being born, being alive, being a human? What? Guilty of what, Tony, what?

All of the above. Yep, in Tony's religion we are all pieces of shit from conception till death. Not that there isn't a kernel of truth in that, but he and his ilk focus way too much on it while downplaying the good in people.

Why is it that religion insists on trying to make people feel so lousy?

Some religion....some....not all.

[Christoff]

Why is it that religion insists on trying to make people feel so lousy?

It's a very successful business strategy: Tell people they have an "illness", while at the same time providing the "cure". Works like a charm.

[mitchellmckain]

No I don't follow the teachings and doctrines of men, and I don't look to a herd for justification. I read the Bible for myself and do my own thinking about what God is trying to communicate

So isn't he doing exactly the thing which he accuses Tony (and the rest) of doing?

First of all, I made no such accusation. You took this comment out of context. I was replying to Tony's demand:

Can you list 5 others who believe like you?

I do not care if there are 5 others who believe like me. It is not relevant and I do not in fact take what I believe from others and never will.

Now the definition of words is another matter. The only way that words can communicate any meaning is if a consensus agrees upon what the words mean. So in that regard you will indeed see me state what the consensus is concerning the meaning of the words Chrisitan and Christianity. There is a large consensus made primarily of non-believers who simply define these as "followers of Christ" and that is all, but this is not a very useful definition because that would not distinguish it from Islam, which also claims to follow Christ. Therefore I do in fact think that the most significant consensus on the meaning of those words resides in the decisions of the 4th century eccumenical councils (the creeds). So yes I certainly think that being Christian and Christianity is defined by the belief in those creeds, but the applicability of those words is the only significance of this. I do not as Mike and Tony do say that you have to believe these things in order to be saved and I in fact think that this is incompatable with the whole point of the gospel message as I understand it. In any case, regardless of what Tony or Mike may say, by that definition I am Christian, but that is simply a matter of fact. Because I believe those things the label is appropriate, but I don't believe those things because that is definition of Christianity.

I have stated repeatedly that this is actually a matter of surprise to me. It is not something that I or anyone would have expected considering my background.

Isn't the Bible itself a composition of "teachings and doctrines of men"?

It is a collection of writings very little of which consists of doctrines. I think this fundamentalist idea that the Bible consists of a simple and obvious doctrinal position is ludicrous and the diversity of thought in Christianity demonstrates this.

In any case, both Tony and I believe it is the word of God. You of course, are perfectly free to make your own determination on that, and I take it from you comment that you believe that it is not. But I have made a different determination and therefore your conclusion does not apply to me. Again, I made no accusation that tony is following the teachings and doctrines of men, although his demand certainly does suggest this does it not?

Isn't Mitch doing exactly that - isn't he following the herd's concensus (that the Bible is the supposed Word of God)?

I am certainly not following YOUR herd any more than I am following any other. Yes I have come to agree with the belief that the Bible represents the word of God. But how I came to that conclusion is the question. If you ask me why, my reason will not consist of a list of other people who believe this also. I could care less how many people agree with this. If all the world were atheist, I would still come to that same conclusion, even if I were the only one.

[mitchellmckain]

Mitch,

No I don't follow the teachings and doctrines of men, and I don't look to a herd for justification. I read the Bible for myself and do my own thinking about what God is trying to communicate without limiting Him to what supposed human authorities have to say.

2 Peter 1:19And we have the word of prophecy made more sure; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day-star arise in your hearts: 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation. 21For no prophecy ever came by the will of man: but men spake from God, being moved by the Holy Spirit.

And

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
4:1 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry."

So, since you have no authority to point to except your own mitchistic mind, how do you deal with the above verses?

Tony you ask the question like an insincere jerk. I already told you that I attach no authority to my words whatsoever. Therefore before I take your request seriously, I require that you demonstrate the smallest bit of sincerity and make it clear that you actually want my comment on these verses, because frankly as it is I cannot tell.

[cleve]

Mitch,

No I don't follow the teachings and doctrines of men, and I don't look to a herd for justification. I read the Bible for myself and do my own thinking about what God is trying to communicate without limiting Him to what supposed human authorities have to say.

2 Peter 1:19And we have the word of prophecy made more sure; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day-star arise in your hearts: 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation. 21For no prophecy ever came by the will of man: but men spake from God, being moved by the Holy Spirit.

And

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
4:1 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry."

So, since you have no authority to point to except your own mitchistic mind, how do you deal with the above verses?

Tony you ask the question like an insincere jerk. I already told you that I attach no authority to my words whatsoever. Therefore before I take your request seriously, I require that you demonstrate the smallest bit of sincerity and make it clear that you actually want my comment on these verses, because frankly as it is I cannot tell.

Tony,
If you want to be understood fairly, it's important to address the context for each scripture verse. There are no shortcuts.

[tonyenglish7]

Mitch,

Tony you ask the question like an insincere jerk. I already told you that I attach no authority to my words whatsoever. Therefore before I take your request seriously, I require that you demonstrate the smallest bit of sincerity and make it clear that you actually want my comment on these verses, because frankly as it is I cannot tell.

Mitch, I was both asking and being sarcastic to make a point. You claim to have a personal spiritual view point that seems to be a revelation of some kind that gives you a perspective that nobody else shares or at least nobody that you know because I asked you to list 5 people and you could not. I put some verses out there the show the word of God is authoritative and that the word of God is not from some private interpretation but was for the church to protect and abide by. Even showing that in the last days, (very possibly these days), that many will raise up teachers teaching myths and watering down what the real message is.

I wanted your perspective or rather, your defense of these verses and I wanted to see how you avoid the ramifications of these verses. You tend to pontificate a religious view yet the only thing you point to as a source of your authority is your own brain. You rarely use scripture and you ignore the scriptures I give you. So, it seems to me you have invented a view point that originates in your own mind which you claim was given you by Jesus, yet it seems that Jesus didn't reveal this true religion that you represent to anyone else.

I am coming from the perspective of the historical church, the evangelical church of those who are called "Born again". My world view is similar to about a billion other Christians in the world. Not that this is the sign of truth, it could be that Mitch has the one true view in the universe. But quite frankly, it is hard to grasp and he uses that fact as more proof for the truth of his view. So, like a good snake oil salesman, you either grasp the truth of Mitchism, or you don't, if you do, it is proof that it is true, if you don't it is proof that it is true.

Sorry, I am being blunt, but this is after taking hundreds of judgmental posts calling me a Pharisee and numerous other personal attacks. Without attacking another person, for the love of God, please, just state your view in a positive way using logic, scripture or something other than your own authority.

[tonyenglish7]

Cleve,

Tony,
If you want to be understood fairly, it's important to address the context for each scripture verse. There are no shortcuts.

I was asking Mitch to address the verses, I was not commenting on them at that point. But all my posts are a shortcut because I cannot do this forum full time...