Compelling Testimonies

[cyber007x]

Hello all,

I was recently sent an email from a friend about a girl that died for about 23 hours and went on a trip to heaven and hell accompanied by Jesus. Do a google search for " prepare to meet your God" by Angelica Zambrano.

Now i've read stories like hers before in the past and im not sure if hers is any different. i just wanted to get you guy's take on this subject. Do you guy find it compelling? whats holes do you find in this testimony if any. please lets discuss this


Here is a link to one of the many sites sharing the story

http://spiritlessons.com/Documents/Prep ... /index.htm

[Mr. Sluagh]

Hello all,

I was recently sent an email from a friend about a girl that died for about 23 hours and went on a trip to heaven and hell accompanied by Jesus. Do a google search for " prepare to meet your God" by Angelica Zambrano.

Now i've read stories like hers before in the past and im not sure if her's is any different. i just wanted to get you guy's take on this subject. Do you guy find it compelling? whats holes do you find in this testimony if any. please lets discuss this


Here is a link to one of the many sites sharing the story

http://spiritlessons.com/Documents/Prep ... /index.htm

It would be impressive if near-death experiences were consistently like this, especially those of people who had never encountered Christianity. That might show that such visions were coming from somewhere external to the individuals' psyches, if not that whatever is psychically transmitting them tells the truth. If people who had near-death experiences consistently saw visions of a malevolent squid monster that promised them lives of power, slaughter, and debauchery in exchange for their unwavering loyalty, would you be equally credulous that Cthulhu wouldn't double-cross them, or has divine authority to define morals, even though Cthulhu isn't as good in the PR department?

[cyber007x]

anymore takers on this subject? emmry... what about you?

[Kiwi]

I met a Mormon who described to me an amazing vision he'd had which conveniently coincided with his Mormon beliefs. That's what makes me cynical about these experiences. I think people interpret them according to what they already know (or what they already think they know). One of the forum members here pointed us towards an excellent book called The Third Man Factor which covered similar themes (although not afterlife visions). http://www.achristianandanatheist.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1979

Aside from that, the site you linked to put me off straight away with its awesomely tacky artwork.
Instant credibility problem.

[cyber007x]

thanks for your comments guys. I actually said the same things you guys articulated as to reasons why this phenomenon might be possible to some Christian friends but then one of them told me of a similar experience a complete non Christian had who had never been a Christian. i forget the name of the person, but apparently they person also had an encounter with Jesus and was shown heaven and hell and was told to testify to the world and give his life to Christ. Possibly this guy might be lying. what do you guys think?

[Kiwi]

I wouldn't necessarily say they were lying. At best they probably genuinely believe that what they experienced was objectively true. The problem is with that word 'objective'. You can also throw in another curly word like 'verifiable'. My own opinion is that memory is subjective and unreliable. I also think most people retrospectively backfill or embelish their memories to suit their beliefs or align with their beliefs - without realising that's what they're doing.

Christianity places a lot of emphasis on personal testimonies but the more you unpack these stories the less reliable they often become. I once personally witnessed a paraplegic get prayed for healing and saw him get up out of his wheelchair. True story. And that's how others who were there likely reported it.

The actual fact is that I have no proof at all that he was a paraplegic, he was just a fifty-something guy in a wheelchair for who knows what reason. He didn't "get up" either, he was helped, very shakily, and hobbled slowly with a person supporting him on each arm for a distance of a few metres away from, and back to, his wheelchair. There was much applause and praising of God in the room - a miracle!

Hardly.

[Mr. Sluagh]

thanks for your comments guys. I actually said the same things you guys articulated as to reasons why this phenomenon might be possible to some Christian friends but then one of them told me of a similar experience a complete non Christian had who had never been a Christian. i forget the name of the person, but apparently they person also had an encounter with Jesus and was shown heaven and hell and was told to testify to the world and give his life to Christ. Possibly this guy might be lying. what do you guys think?

Was he merely not a professed Christian before the vision, or had he never encountered Christianity? The difference is crucial.

[Rian]

I wouldn't necessarily say they were lying. At best they probably genuinely believe that what they experienced was objectively true. The problem is with that word 'objective'. You can also throw in another curly word like 'verifiable'. My own opinion is that memory is subjective and unreliable. I also think most people retrospectively backfill or embelish their memories to suit their beliefs or align with their beliefs - without realising that's what they're doing.

Christianity places a lot of emphasis on personal testimonies but the more you unpack these stories the less reliable they often become. I once personally witnessed a paraplegic get prayed for healing and saw him get up out of his wheelchair. True story. And that's how others who were there likely reported it.

The actual fact is that I have no proof at all that he was a paraplegic, he was just a fifty-something guy in a wheelchair for who knows what reason. He didn't "get up" either, he was helped, very shakily, and hobbled slowly with a person supporting him on each arm for a distance of a few metres away from, and back to, his wheelchair. There was much applause and praising of God in the room - a miracle!

Hardly.

That's one thing about the BIble stories about healing - the vast majority don't have that problem, because it's either something like leprosy or withered legs that is very visible, and/or it involves people that lived in that community for years and years and the people know for sure that they have those problems (like the man blind from birth who is now an adult). Whether they are true or not is another story, but they aren't like the bogus healing stories that go around (the ones that are known to be fakes).

[cyber007x]

thanks for all your responses guys but can i please suggest we stick to the main subject of this thread. i appreciate all the input so far

[Kiwi]

Hi there CyberJamesBondx

I'm not sure what your previous experience is with web forums but you might need to be a bit patient with us. We're a community of conversationalists, not a instant answer machine. It would seem to me that we've stuck to your topic quite well by discussing personal experiences and testimonies - which strikes me as being entirely relevant to your opening post given the direction the very short discussion has taken thus far. Would you prefer we talk specifically about the particular case you cited (and either pick holes in it or verify it)? As I said earlier, I have a problem with the credibility of the story, so that's somewhat difficult for me, hence my mention of the credibility problem of personal testimony in general.

If you have more specific questions by all mean ask and we'll dive in.

Kiwi.