Why don't we believe?

[NH Baritone]

In an effort to rescue the thread from WW's rude distraction, here's an essay I typed out quickly about 5 years ago when asked why I don't believe in God. It's a bit rambly, but it will do in a pinch:

First, you have to define the term "God." The problem with most theists is that this term is a moving target.

In addition, because there is no direct evidence either for or against the existence of any God, you cannot use deductive logic (a+b=c; therefore c-b=a). You can only reach a conclusion by inductive reasoning using the balance of evidence (90% of A is also B; C is B, so the chances are 90% that C is also A).

I will assert that the only RELEVANT definition of God states that GOD INTERVENES TO CIRCUMVENT NATURAL LAWS.

But if God circumvents natural laws, then it becomes impossible to understand natural laws. All scientific findings would necessarily include the stipulation, "It is also possible that these results are an act of God, a miracle, thereby making our research meaningless."

However, we have been able to expand our knowledge of natural laws (evidenced by every appliance in your kitchen). Therefore, because the scientific method leads to applicable discoveries, and the likely conclusion is that God, at least the intervening kind, does not exist.

Additionally, if God is defined as all loving, all powerful, and all knowing, then it is impossible to explain suffering. Either God is not all loving (he acts sadistically), not all powerful (he cannot prevent suffering), or not all knowing (he created suffering by mistake because he didn't know the consequences of his actions). A God who is not all-loving, all-powerful or all-knowing is also not sufficient for the definition of God, because any God that fails to meet these criteria becomes bound by rules that are greater than God.

If God is bound by external rules and/or does not intervene in our existence, then God is either non-existent or irrelevant. The classic Bertrand Russell argument is that I cannot prove that a china teapot is orbiting the sun between the earth's orbit and Mars. But while I cannot prove this is not true, the evidence against it is compelling.

And while it is not possible to prove beyond any doubt that some god exists, it makes enormously more sense to live your life as if there were no God.

It is more compelling to me that humans have invented all the gods ever described (a) to help people deal with the pain and fear associated with confusion, death, and loss, and (b) to reflect the thoughts of the ruling powers in a particular time. (In Roman times, they elevated the emperors to god-status. In the US, Christians have bought into such beliefs as "manifest destiny" and "American exceptionalism.")

Humans have always searched for explanations. When none were easily found, it has been the natural inclination to declare that the cause of the unexplained was "God" (or gods). (It's reassuring to think you know things, even when you don't.) Confirmation bias led believers to attribute "miracles" (coincidences) and laws to this Divinity, and over time a series of orthodoxies emerged.

Now it seems unhelpful and in many ways maladaptive to believe in such superstition. The only matters that aid in our ongoing well-being are genetics, work, location, health, culture, sustenance, and pure, blind luck.

[tirtlegrrl]

Hi Exrev,

I recognize and sympathize with all of your objections, and if people were to ask me why I'm no longer a conservative or fundamentalist Christian I would probably list a lot of them as reasons, particularly the errancy objection.

Just out of curiosity, would you care to speculate on why you think those reasons warrant your disbelief (or why the answers to the objections aren't enough to reinstate your belief), but those very same objections don't seem to be sufficient for most conservative Christians to leave or revise their faith? (For example, I could raise objections to my dad all day long and he'd still believe no matter what.) I have my own ideas on this topic, obviously, but I'd like to know what you think since we both appear to have undergone a de-conversion of a sort but yours appears to have gone deeper than mine.

What i found was that a naturalistic world-view made more sense to me. Evolution fits with reality. Its very simple why i don't believe. No evidence. Even theologians will admit that God has hidden himself from humanity. For me the whole system imploded. Many people don't see how one belief effects another belief and they end up with some very illogical and incoherent beliefs about god. So its not that I justify my not-believing its that I will never believe without justification.

For instance if I lack a belief in hell, then why would there be a need jesus' death. Thats what Christ died to save us from, eternal death. So if I lost my faith in hell....then it logically follows that there is no need for Jesus' death and resurrection. Things like this. Well here are some other reasons I laid out.
1. I did what some people call an Outsiders Test Of faith. I looked at my own faith with the same skepticism that I looked at other peoples of a different faith. Most of the time I'd say that this requires a crisis of some sort for anyone to question their core values and beliefs.In fact that might be a crisis in and of itself. In reality what i was doing was placing the burden of proof on my faith and my beliefs. This wasn't easy to do, it was emotionally exhausting to realize that what I believed all my life turned out to be a lie. My faith didn't pass the test. It started with finding evolution to be a fact...and yet at the same time I find out that people I've trusted told me lies about evolution,. What else did they lie about? They believed made up stories so now I had good reason to question them, (not directly but as far as my mind was concerned I no longer trusted what I knew, I've learned that really we should always question and never just settle.)

Yup, YEC arguments became a big issue for me too. I found out that I had been assuming, naively, that God wouldn't let his followers misrepresent scientific evidence to impressionable children. But when I asked myself whether the arguments used by YECs would be persuasive to me coming from defenders of any other theological system, I realized that most of them were pure bunk according to my standard of bunk. However, is it true that the people you trusted were actually lying to you about evolution? Because while I grant that a lot of the professional YEC defenders may be disengenuous, my own community trusted those publications because they value theological credentials over scientific ones.

2. For most believers they need to have their faith proved impossible before they'll see it as improbable. There are so many built in "walls" of their faith to protect there belief system. Like statements such as "we don't understand God's ways" Or "God's ways are higher than our own." So while believers may have objections to their own faith they can quickly cover it up with these cop outs. The difference between me and them, was I never bought into these excuses. I [k]new that it was crap when I was hearing it and somethings never settled.

Well, I think that for everyone there is a point where they will continue to believe in something even though they don't understand it. Scientists still think evolution occurred even though they still argue about the precise way it happened. I just think it's interesting that people differ so much in where they choose to invoke the "We don't know...yet" clause.

3. Conservative for the most part realize that their faith doesn't make sense. They know it! I had plenty of problems making sense of of things. Just like Tony knows that there are parts of his faith that he knows he accepts that are illogical...such as the trinity! Or Jesus being God and Man, dual natures? Can't ever sin, but the bible state Jesus was tempted? REALLY? How can someone be tempted if they can't sin? But they cover it up. "God is bigger than us" "All things are possible" and lastly "Just have faith."
4. Like most humans, evangelicals at the end of the day we don't hold our beliefs for very good reasons. We typically believe something before we have evidence.When we lookup to someone we trust and they tell us something, we automatically accept it as truth and in fact if someone challenges those things, many times we defend it based on emotion rather than good reasons. Because we view it as an attack against us not the facts. So for me before I questioned my faith, something happened for me to lose my trust in my Christian community. I didn't leave the church because of that lack of trust, but I knew something wasn't right. it did allow me to start questioning.

I don't really know what the impetus was for me to start questioning; I know that the death of my devout uncle in spite of very dedicated prayer for his recovery was a huge factor in creating my current cynicism about the efficacy of praying for specific needs or desires. And an in-depth study of the book of Matthew brought up the questions about inerrancy and the nature of interpretation. (The evolution stuff came later and sure as heck didn't help my faith!) So I would get very frustrated because I LOVE church but I found myself unable to positively affirm half the stuff the church taught. My solution is to attend a church where probably half the attendees are agnostic believers like me. God bless wishy-washy mainline Protestantism!

[marcuspnw]

Why don’t I believe? Here's a few:

I have no need for another Father figure in my life.

I do not desire a Friend who never seems to show up or help out but insists on taking all the credit for everything good in my life even though I am the one making the effort.

Walking alone or walking with Jesus pretty much feels like the same thing to me so I’ll just assume I’m walking alone until some unseen spiritual entity sneezes.

Worship is a demeaning act. I find such relationships unhealthy and to be avoided. A God that insists on worship reminds me of a little brat that will destroy an anthill if he is ignored. Respect yes (when justified), worship no.

I don’t connect with most of the stories in the Bible. The basic gospel message doesn’t resonate with me on an emotional level. I find much more inspiration from the great works of literature and art. I am more inclined to read from Shakespeare’s “Romeo and Juliet” than say one of the Psalms of David. Jesus isn’t all that special to me. None of the Biblical characters are on my radar screen to put it bluntly. If it is of any consolation, neither is Mohammed or Vishnu.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. (Lord Acton) I am opposed to any being having too much power and that includes God Almighty.

In summary, God is superfluous in my life. Everything functions well without Him and there is no gaping hole in my life that only He can fill. Why do I need to look for Him?
Much easier for Him to find me than the other way around so until He makes contact, I’ll muddle on best I can without Him. But just in case He happens to be listening, I offer up my prayer:

Dear Jesus:

When You wipe away my tears, You take away my soul. When You remove my pain, You diminish my sacrifices. When You make me immortal, I am no longer me. I become more like You. I don’t want to be You.

Please quit trying to fix me as if I’m your broken toy. I’m a human being. I’m quite satisfied. Thanks.

Amen.

I'll inform the forum if I get a response!

[WorldlingWatcher]

They call it the Dept. of Corrections for a reason.

Only in some places, and it also seems to me we might also be trying to protect other people by removing dangerous offenders from the general population. Also, if all being imprisoned is about is being reformed, why do we frequently say ex-convicts have "paid their debt to society"?

[WorldlingWatcher]

I suggest, WW, that you not pose questions that you are unwilling to answer yourself.

What possible objective standards are you using to evaluate your acceptance of supernatural interventions in human affairs?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "supernatural interventions". Anyhow, it's not really the standards of evaluation that I'm curious about; it's the things people consider and how they weight them when selecting a particular standard.

For example, the term "evidence" get thrown around here a good deal because there's a near universal agreement that "evidence" is important, but there is significant disagreement as to what types of things should fit in that category. It gets back to a question I asked some time ago and for which I have yet to find a satisfying answer.

What definition of justice allows for eternal punishment for a thought crime or avoidance of all consequences for a mere apology?

Well, it seems to me if I do something which causes or encourages another being to be cut off from the presence and providence of his creator for eternity, it would be a pretty serious crime. Similarly, if I deprive that creator of the eternal benefits he had in mind when he created me, there's an eternal harm that must be repaid.

With respect to the apology, first, you're proposing a radical simplification of what's really involved, and second, the pardon we receive is an act of mercy, not justice.

[humanguy]

Well, it seems to me if I do something which causes or encourages another being to be cut off from the presence and providence of his creator for eternity, it would be a pretty serious crime. Similarly, if I deprive that creator of the eternal benefits he had in mind when he created me, there's an eternal harm that must be repaid.

That sounds just wonderful! You must be having a lot of fun!

When do we get to see the photos?

[Aaron]

1. Hell ! I rejected the idea that a truly loving God would make this torture chamber! I don't believe a god would be that unjust

Finite crimes do not deserve infinite punishment, in fact punishment is a part of discipline which in turns means that at the end of the day its meant to train someone. Eternal punishment therefore is not punishment...its torture.

This is a tough one. But before I write down some thoughts I've had on this area I want to go in another direction real quick. Somewhere in this thread, and I think it was you Exrev, I got the impression you looked down on Christians for using cop outs as you called them (like saying God’s ways are higher than our own and stuff like that). Well I see where you’re coming from, but then at the same time I don’t.

If I’m serious about my belief in God then where I’m standing right now it would be unreasonable for me to think I could understand everything that the uncreated God has ever done or ever will do. I guess I would say it’s quite understandable that it’s not possible for me to understand everything that God does or knows. In this situation it’s not a cop out, it’s reality. So I guess what I’m trying to say it would be good to use your language accurately. What I mean is perhaps you should say, “It would appear that Christians use those kind of statements as cop outs”, because as far as I know you can’t prove that Christianity is false beyond all doubt and if you can’t prove it’s false it might be true and if it might be true then such statements would not be cop outs they would be truthful accurate descriptions of human reality. I suppose this is just a simple matter of making sure our statements remain within what may be known, if you know what I mean. Sorry to be so technical, but I feel it’s necessary and please correct me if you think I’m wrong here.

Anyways back to Hell. I don’t have a magical answer, but I do have some thoughts. In this life I’ve observed that some things are more good than others (and I suppose what follows will be mostly my opinions but others might agree). For example if I take on the responsibility of caring for a dog some really good things can come out of it if I do it right. If I love the dog, discipline the dog when I should, spend a good amount of time with the dog, make sure it gets enough exercise, feed it healthy food, you know just do things right that relationship with the dog can be really good. Now on the other hand I can really screw it up and things can go bad and I don’t want to talk about it because it would make me sad to describe.

Now let’s go upwards. If I were to fall in love with a woman and was somehow able to make her fall in love with me that relationship could be simply amazing if I did it right. But again if I didn’t do things right, well things can get really really nasty and I really don’t want to describe that.

Now let’s go to the top according to Christianity. God creates me to glorify Him. If I come into right relationship through Jesus with God things can go really well, beyond all imagination according to Christianity. God is the fuel upon which we are meant to run, we become fulfilled in Him, at least that’s what Christianity says paraphrasing of course. Now if I screw up this relationship then things get bad.

So by now you probably see where I’m going. I can’t help but to notice in this life it seems like the better something is, the more good it can produce but also the worse it can get and the more bad it can produce. Sure shooting some hoops with your buddies is fun and if you win its alright, but if you have trained all your life with the goal of winning an NBA title and you finally get your shot, things go to a whole new level, the win become that much better and the loss becomes that much more heart wrenching. You can’t raise the stakes in poker only in your favor, when you raise the stakes in life it only really means something when the stakes are raised both ways. Do you see what I’m saying?

You said finite crimes do not deserve infinite punishment, but I can’t help but wonder what kind of stakes we are playing with when we welcome or reject a relationship with God.

But I don’t know, this is just something that I’ve often thought. What do you think about what I’ve said?

[WorldlingWatcher]

That sounds just wonderful! You must be having a lot of fun!

When do we get to see the photos?

What makes you think having fun is the point?

[Keep The Reason]

That was more directed at Exrev, but for you in particular the question might go something like, "What is a valid, objective (or even a reasonable subjective) standard to determine if 'materialism sufficiently addresses how existence is how it is'?"

1. Understandability
"We must make sure all information we use is understandable so those who are willing to understand it, indeed can."

2. Relevance and Materiality
"Information must be relevant to the problem for which it has been sought... Materiality of information refers to its significance on the outcome of a decision."

3. Reliability and Verifiability
"Facts, figures and data, must be reliable. They must be as free from error as possible. If something is held to be true, it must also be universally observable and verifiable by many other independent sources."

4. Comparability
"Information must be comparable. It must be in a form that can be corroborated with other sources of information, so decision-makers can compare ‘apples with apples’, not ‘apples with oranges’. Facts, methods and figures must be presented in a manner that is consistent to increase their comparability in the future."

5. Consistency
"The information given by evidence [must be] consistent. For example, theories in algebra and chemistry are consistent and evident everywhere. Once understood, a person can use them to build planes or formulate medicine, regardless of whether they are a Muslim, an atheist or a Christian."

[humanguy]

Well, it seems to me if I do something which causes or encourages another being to be cut off from the presence and providence of his creator for eternity, it would be a pretty serious crime. Similarly, if I deprive that creator of the eternal benefits he had in mind when he created me, there's an eternal harm that must be repaid.

That sounds just wonderful! You must be having a lot of fun!

When do we get to see the photos?

What makes you think having fun is the point?

What do you mean by "the point?"

[Dr Mundo]

For example if I take on the responsibility of caring for a dog ....

...Now let’s go upwards. If I were to fall in love with a woman....

..Now let’s go to the top according to Christianity. God creates me to glorify Him. ...

In all but one, you have some sort of control over whether or not you want to be involved in that particular situation, Do you know which situation you were unwillingly put into?

[Aaron]

In all but one, you have some sort of control over whether or not you want to be involved in that particular situation, Do you know which situation you were unwillingly put into?

Yes but you're talking about the difference between being created and not being created (assuming God is real). And if God is real its not as if choosing to have a relationship with God is something bad, its what we were made for, its what makes us whole, at least according to the Bible. I suppose in that way its similar to the relationship between a dog and its master. The dog doesn't really have much of a choice, but from my own personal experience as long as a dog is treated right and is taught to be obedient with compassion, patience and love that dog will have never been more complete. From what I have observed the greatest joy my dog ever had was when she was spending time with me and I with her. Perhaps its a similar thing between us and God. What do you think of that?

[humanguy]

Yes but you're talking about the difference between being created and not being created (assuming God is real). And if God is real its not as if choosing to have a relationship with God is something bad, its what we were made for, its what makes us whole, at least according to the Bible. I suppose in that way its similar to the relationship between a dog and its master. The dog doesn't really have much of a choice, but from my own personal experience as long as a dog is treated right and is taught to be obedient with compassion, patience and love that dog will have never been more complete. From what I have observed the greatest joy my dog ever had was when she was spending time with me and I with her. Perhaps its a similar thing between us and God. What do you think of that?

I realize, of course, that you're not asking me that question, but I'm going to give an answer anyway. Here's exactly what I think of that. I think it's nuts. I don't see any thought being put into what I've quoted here. It's the words of an automaton. I find it to be very sad.

I'll go so far as to say that I consider it to be very depressing, this idea, this reality even (as we are shown here), that a reasonably intelligent person, one who has access to all the resources that western civilization has to offer, could actually be so simpleminded as to entertain such notions.

That's what I think of that.

[Dr Mundo]

Yes but you're talking about the difference between being created and not being created (assuming God is real). And if God is real its not as if choosing to have a relationship with God is something bad, its what we were made for, its what makes us whole, at least according to the Bible. I suppose in that way its similar to the relationship between a dog and its master. The dog doesn't really have much of a choice, but from my own personal experience as long as a dog is treated right and is taught to be obedient with compassion, patience and love that dog will have never been more complete. From what I have observed the greatest joy my dog ever had was when she was spending time with me and I with her. Perhaps its a similar thing between us and God. What do you think of that?

i would think that its all fine and good, until you start to punish your dog for not wanting to be with you, not loving you, or not worshiping you. you say god created you to you to glorify him, how did he create me if i have no intention of glorifying (if it means worship, because i too think we are all above worship)? how do you know he created you for that purpose? how could i know why he didn't create me that way? if i'm not made that way is it my fault? should i be punished? what do you think of all of that?

[Dr Mundo]

I realize, of course, that you're not asking me that question, but I'm going to give an answer anyway.

this is why we post on an open forum, or else he and i should private message. but its better that we can all comment and see each others response.

Here's exactly what I think of that. I think it's nuts. I don't see any thought being put into what I've quoted here. It's the words of an automaton. I find it to be very sad.

I'll go so far as to say that I consider it to be very depressing, this idea, this reality even (as we are shown here), that a reasonably intelligent person, one who has access to all the resources that western civilization has to offer, could actually be so simpleminded as to entertain such notions.

That's what I think of that.

i think you should cut theists a little bit of slack, I also find it quite sad that there are people who believe they deserve to be punished forever if they don't accept Jesus as their Lord. As if being human without the Guidance of this supernatural entity was so bad as to deserve an eternal torture chamber. I can however understand how some of these people would want to believe in a higher power, but i just don't understand how such an immoral and outright ridiculous religion like Christianity got to the level of power it has now. I almost couldn't think of a worse God to sell to people, yet countless defend his supposed actions. they really do remind me of battered women making excuses for their abusive husbands, because they love them.

despite all of that(and much more) i still can understand where they get these beliefs/feelings from, when i believed in God, i used to pray for some of the stupidest things, like to talk to a cute girl at school, and when i got intimate with them i would somehow think that God had something to do with it. it would happen soon after prayer sometimes so that gave me a false sense of confirmation. (i would also pray for starving people and people in less than desirable situations, so don't think me too vane.) Knowing we will die is scary and some can't bare the thought so they find comfort in god/afterlife. To me the belief in god seems completely normal human behavior, we like the comforting feeling of delusions sometimes. I still want us as people to get past this whole religion and god thing soon, we now have far better ways of dealing with philosophical, medical, and emotional states and we can get rid of these unfounded God claims. its just going to be harder for some than for others.