Exrev wrote:1. Hell ! I rejected the idea that a truly loving God would make this torture chamber! I don't believe a god would be that unjust
Exrev wrote:Finite crimes do not deserve infinite punishment, in fact punishment is a part of discipline which in turns means that at the end of the day its meant to train someone. Eternal punishment therefore is not punishment...its torture.
Aaron wrote:This is a tough one. But before I write down some thoughts I've had on this area I want to go in another direction real quick. Somewhere in this thread, and I think it was you Exrev, I got the impression you looked down on Christians for using cop outs as you called them (like saying God’s ways are higher than our own and stuff like that). Well I see where you’re coming from, but then at the same time I don’t.
If I’m serious about my belief in God then where I’m standing right now it would be unreasonable for me to think I could understand everything that the uncreated God has ever done or ever will do. I guess I would say it’s quite understandable that it’s not possible for me to understand everything that God does or knows. In this situation it’s not a cop out, it’s reality. So I guess what I’m trying to say it would be good to use your language accurately. What I mean is perhaps you should say, “It would appear that Christians use those kind of statements as cop outs”, because as far as I know you can’t prove that Christianity is false beyond all doubt and if you can’t prove it’s false it might be true and if it might be true then such statements would not be cop outs they would be truthful accurate descriptions of human reality. I suppose this is just a simple matter of making sure our statements remain within what may be known, if you know what I mean. Sorry to be so technical, but I feel it’s necessary and please correct me if you think I’m wrong here.
No such thing as beyond ALL doubt. And do I even need such a standard, I think not. In civil court its the preponderance of the evidence and even criminal court its beyond a REASONABLE doubt. So beyond ALL doubt is pretty much impossible. But if we assume that the law of non-contradiction is true then Christianity is beyond debunked. See while I maybe not be able to prove that god doesn't exist- nor would I want to or need to. But showing that Christianity is not true is a completely a different matter. But its really easy. 1. Jesus lied Mark 13. 2. The bible contradicts itself so many times its not funny http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html
3. The Christian god is not logical the trinity. 4. Modern archeology does not support the story of O.T. So anyways the god question and is Christianity true are two very different questions. I'd agree that we can't prove a negative like there is no god...but the more claims about god one makes the more likely it is that it can be show to be false or impossible.
Aaron wrote:Anyways back to Hell. I don’t have a magical answer, but I do have some thoughts. In this life I’ve observed that some things are more good than others (and I suppose what follows will be mostly my opinions but others might agree). For example if I take on the responsibility of caring for a dog some really good things can come out of it if I do it right. If I love the dog, discipline the dog when I should, spend a good amount of time with the dog, make sure it gets enough exercise, feed it healthy food, you know just do things right that relationship with the dog can be really good. Now on the other hand I can really screw it up and things can go bad and I don’t want to talk about it because it would make me sad to describe.
Now let’s go upwards. If I were to fall in love with a woman and was somehow able to make her fall in love with me that relationship could be simply amazing if I did it right. But again if I didn’t do things right, well things can get really really nasty and I really don’t want to describe that.
Now let’s go to the top according to Christianity. God creates me to glorify Him. If I come into right relationship through Jesus with God things can go really well, beyond all imagination according to Christianity. God is the fuel upon which we are meant to run, we become fulfilled in Him, at least that’s what Christianity says paraphrasing of course. Now if I screw up this relationship then things get bad.
Define a relationship with Jesus?
Is it doing prayer?
Bible Reading? Going to Church? Feeling warm fuzzy tingly feelings when playing worship music?
Community Service? Loving other people? Having great sex?
Thanking Jesus for a parking space at the mall, while thousands of children starve to death?
SO define what you mean by RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS?
Aaron wrote:So by now you probably see where I’m going. I can’t help but to notice in this life it seems like the better something is, the more good it can produce but also the worse it can get and the more bad it can produce. Sure shooting some hoops with your buddies is fun and if you win its alright, but if you have trained all your life with the goal of winning an NBA title and you finally get your shot, things go to a whole new level, the win become that much better and the loss becomes that much more heart wrenching. You can’t raise the stakes in poker only in your favor, when you raise the stakes in life it only really means something when the stakes are raised both ways. Do you see what I’m saying?
I don't know how this is relevant to the conversation. Other than the more you risk something the sweeter the success and the harder the failure. But what does this have to do with God. So maybe the more committed the believer...the more bitter they will be when they find out that their faith was a bunch of bullshit.
Aaron wrote:You said finite crimes do not deserve infinite punishment, but I can’t help but wonder what kind of stakes we are playing with when we welcome or reject a relationship with God.
Its not a choice. If it is the Christian god we must worship him or we burn. That is not a choice. There can be no love when we have a greater power demanding that we worship him. Its a demand and we are his slave. If the Christian god exists, you have no choice.
Aaron wrote: But I don’t know, this is just something that I’ve often thought. What do you think about what I’ve said?
I really don't see where you were going with this.