In John 5:39 Jesus says that the pharisees read the scriptures in order to find salvation in them by their deeds. Jesus did not say there that God is not confined to scripture. He says scripture points to Him in regards to salvation. 2 Tim 3;16,17 ponts the man of God to scripture in order to be equipped for every good work.
How do you know scripture points to Christ without scripture? How do you know what equips the man of God without scripture? The problem has never been scripture but unregenerate man using scripture for their beliefs and it ends with twisting of scripture
mikedsjr wrote:In John 5:39 Jesus says that the pharisees read the scriptures in order to find salvation in them by their deeds.
mikedsjr wrote: Jesus did not say there that God is not confined to scripture.
mikedsjr wrote: He says scripture points to Him in regards to salvation. 2 Tim 3;16,17 ponts the man of God to scripture in order to be equipped for every good work.
mikedsjr wrote:How do you know scripture points to Christ without scripture?
mikedsjr wrote: How do you know what equips the man of God without scripture? The problem has never been scripture but unregenerate man using scripture for their beliefs and it ends with twisting of scripture
tirtlegrrl wrote:And how can we judge the difference between twisting and non-twisting of Scripture, other than by appeal to a particular standard of interpretation or authority which is by nature outside of Scripture?
mikedsjr wrote:Tgrrl, no disrespect but we arent talking musical tastes of a finitera individuals piece of music. We are talking the God revealing Himself and using scripture to do it. Unless you believe God is an imperfect being, then your example fails
mikedsjr wrote:The scriptures are God breathed from an eternal perfect God which scripture says God requires perfection from us or the repent and believe in the son who died for your sin filled heart. Brahma bull is a dead man that had an imperfect mind that doesn't care if imperfect people rearrange his music.
tirtlegrrl wrote:I just had an idea about this that might be helpful to the discussion.
I'm a professional classical musician. A huge portion of what we do is textual interpretation. We look at the score for a piece of music, and from our experience of the score we play what we call, say, the "Brahms String Quartet in B-flat". So, analogous to the "sola scriptura" idea, we might have the "sola the score of Brahms," for the text, or perhaps "sola the way Brahms intended the piece to sound," meaning the players would try to conform to some "ideal performance" of the quartet as it might exist in Brahms' imagination. But we also have interpretive and listening communities that shape how the piece is played, each with its own kind of authority over interpretation.
So in this analogy, the Catholics are the performer/teachers that tell students how the piece goes because of a lineage of performance tradition that goes back to a close colleague of Brahms who allegedly got the interpretation from the horse's mouth, as it were. Those people derive their authority over the interpretation from a tradition that goes back to Brahms himself.
Martin Luther is the student that looks at the score one day in a lesson and says, "Hey, you're telling me to put an unmarked accent here, and you're ignoring this diminuendo marking in the score two measures later."
So he storms out and proclaims allegiance to the score alone, and soon attracts a wide following. But this is immediately problematic, because if all those musicians still want to play the piece as "Brahms intended it" to sound, without the performance tradition anyone looking at the score can and will make their own judgments about tempi, rubato, intonation, articulation, etc. They might even, Brahms forbid, see fit to adhere to what they think is the "spirit of the score" rather than the letter of the score, and put in some ideas of their own. So you then end up with very widely differing performances of the piece, all claiming to be "what Brahms wrote," or "what Brahms intended" and appealing to the score for support of their interpretation. So instead of one particular authority over interpretation, you have as many authorities as there are performers. Hence if you're looking for the "true" interpretation of Brahms, the "score alone" philosophy still doesn't get you anywhere, because without the tradition of performance you have no outside standard against which to measure your interpretation of his markings. Unfortunately you also can't know that the Catholic tradition of Brahms performance hasn't been corrupted, and in fact the accumulation of extra-textual interpretive habits in the tradition suggests very strongly that the current authoritative interpretation likely bears little resemblance to what Brahms originally had in mind.
Here's my take on Brahms: if Brahms had wanted total control over how his music was played, he wouldn't have written it down and had it published and spread around. On the other hand, a performance tradition that claims to go all the way back to Brahms could also be helpful in determining a continuum for what is more and less faithful to the sort of interpretation Brahms would like most. There's a practical element too: if my interpretation is too far out there no one will listen to the performance or even call it a Brahms quartet.
ScottBarger wrote:I think it was a good analogy TG, it speaks to the transmition of the text (variants and or/ errors) and it speaks to intent.
tirtlegrrl wrote:Actually, I wasn't concerned in my analogy with textual variants (we do deal with those, though, for sure) but more with tradition of interpretation, i.e. the Catholic Church's claim that they are the source of all proper interpretation. Because even if we could know for sure that we have the text as originally written, we still have the problem of interpretational authority, and appealing to the text itself for the source of authority doesn't remove the problem entirely since even the claim that the text itself claims its own authority still comes through the interpretation of a reader.
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