Help with Atheism

[Dr Mundo]

Again, the problem with this discussion, this is what it SOUNDS like you're saying (However, I'm thoroughly confused again, so please correct me where I'm wrong):
Q: Do you believe in God? Don't know what you mean by God.
A: No, "I don't have any beliefs about God." Because I don't know what you mean by God.
Q: Ok, so you're agnostic about the God of Christianity? Yes, and so are you.
A: Oh, the God of Christianity? No, the God of Christianity is "just a man made construct" I find it more reasonable to conclude that its made up yes.
Q: But isn't this an opinion about God? And based on the definition above, isn't this opinion a "belief"? I didn't say I don't have a belief about Jesus/Yahweh.
A: Yes. N/A
Q: So you DO have a belief about God? No, unless you want to limit the definition to Jesus/Yahweh
A: No, no beliefs about God, just any God currently proposed... Depends
Q: So which God in particular don't you have beliefs about? A deist God i guess.
A: I don't know, propose another God and I'll tell you if I have an opinion about Him. Once you do I will join you in trying to find any evidence of its existence. unless you just make stuff up then we would have a hard task ahead of us.
Q: So basically, you have a belief that every currently proposed God is a "man made construct", but you have no beliefs about the countless other possibilities of Gods? IF you make a claim which is either Demonstrably wrong, as some aspects Christianity. Or one with absolutely no way to determine one way of the other, then we are just left speculating on how things could be rather than trying to find out how they are.
A: Yes. N/A

Ok, I would probably agree with you, of those things that have yet to be proposed, I am also either agnostic or have no beliefs about them. So in the future, I will be clearer on my question. Do you believe the Christian God exists? And I think your answer to this is not "I don't know." It sounds like your answer is, "No, I don't believe the Christian God exists." Therefore, you have an opinion/belief about the Christian God. I think...

Yeah sorry I didn't realize that it was this confusing. I have my opinions on the Yahweh God. When I say God in relation to Atheism, Its the entity that Jesus/Yahweh was invented to try to describe. So Yes I have a belief about Jesus/Yahweh I can see why people would propose Yahweh as an answer for things just doesn't seem to reelect anything of value once I read his holy book. So people had this vague description of what they Thought God was, because things were hard to explain in a pre-science civilization, so they made up this Yahweh to try to fit him into this mold of what God was supposed to be. I find that to be more convincing than Yahweh being this Entity we call God.

For starters I don't know what to make of the word God, what attributes it has, what Desires(if its even capable of desires) I don't know. Your definition of God however is subject to testable scientific scrutiny. The Muslim God is not the same thing as God. We don't have to prove that the God of the Muslims is false before we can say the God of the Christians is true.(same god anyway but just different view of him i guess so I think Zeus would be a better example to compare Allah to)

I think i see the problem, When you say God. you mean Jesus. Since I don't believe Jesus is God when I say God I mean something else. IF you could prove that the Only definition of God could mean Jesus. then I think I would be more comfortable saying I not only don't believe in God. but I believe that God does not exist. Well I don't think you could prove that God Has to either be Jesus or not exist, so I don't see that topic going anywhere. Also there are tons of different variations of Jesus. So it would still be troublesome to pin down one definition. I don't want to get into it anyway.

[mitchellmckain]

Here lies the true problem, I think i see it now. You believe certain things about God. I don't know if you are a christian so lets just assume for now you are. When I say I don't have any beliefs on God maybe you are limiting that only to your God.

Nope. Problem NOT identified!

I understand your point, and your frustration, surrounding the idea that babies are born atheist based on the fact that when they are born, they don't believe in god(s), which is also true of atheists, and is a definition of atheist. You're opinion is that atheism is merely a lack of belief in gods, is not the same as a disbelief in gods, and is all that is required to be classified as atheist.

The problem is that he DOESN'T functionally define that as atheist any more than any one else is. It reminds me a great deal of the dogmatic religious who quite often thoughtlessly repeat and defend something even though they turn around contradict themselves in a concrete example as if they cannot even hear themselves speak. He proves beyond any doubt that this is empty rhetoric of the worst kind.

What do you think of the following response?

"I never found the question very interesting or meaningful and still don't. I have more important things to think about."

Those who use the default position rhetoric, saying that everyone is born an atheist will of course call this person an atheist. I am not even sure that I would call this person an agnostic, because I don't believe in ANY default positions.

I wouldn't call that person an atheist, Unless he specifically says what his beliefs are about God, you can't know if he is an Atheist or a Theist.

Now, HERE is the REAL problem. One cannot find a finer example of the utter confusion that ChristianHeretic was talking about!

If I was making a case, then would with immense satisfaction say, "I rest my case!"

[ChristianHeretic]

Sorry, I don't think I'm following this conversation. Apparently I'm a bit too slow! One last question I do have though, is if you say "I don't have any beliefs about God," then how in the world can you say anyone's definition is the wrong one. If I proposed that mitch here was actually God (don't get any ideas mitch) how would you go about proving to me that he wasn't actually God if you "don't have any beliefs about God"? Well, it's impossible to prove to me that he's not god if you have no criterion which this hypothetical God of yours would have to possess.

[Keep The Reason]

"I never found the question very interesting or meaningful and still don't. I have more important things to think about."

Apatheist. Couldn't care about the issue one way or the other.

I'm close to this in some ways. I think there's a political imperative to work against theism especially since religion+technology=destruction, and so I mount these discussions presenting the case for Reason and rejection of theism (and am involved in a local community ways as well). And admittedly, some of it is done for mental exercise and entertainment purposes. But for me, the issue is already decided, with the sole caveat that I recognize I could be wrong (similarly, I don't believe in alien abductions either, and I think the issue is decided, but I could be wrong about that too). To me, this argument is not any different from having an argument over whether or not Baal exists as something more than a fictional / mythological character. The argument is pretty much over (though I know theists cling to the belief that it isn't); no god claim has shown any hint of merit, there is no demonstration of the assertion, no evidence, and really no need for a god.

The very fact that no one, anywhere, maintains an active defense of Isis or Odin (or Baal) pretty much illustrates that modern god-believers are simply the extant generation of individuals who believe in unsupported claims and do so on a dearth of actual evidence. In 1,000 years, it's as likely as not that people will look back at modern Christians and wonder how anyone could believe in Christianity, just like today's Christians look back to their ancestors and cannot imagine how they could believe in witches (to the point of burning people at the stake).

Anyway, it's not confusing at all. Apatheists are a subset of atheist because by not caring, they don't embrace any positively asserted claims about gods. And part of what makes belief in god a belief in god is one's approval of the concept.

[mitchellmckain]

"I never found the question very interesting or meaningful and still don't. I have more important things to think about."

Apatheist. Couldn't care about the issue one way or the other.

I'm close to this in some ways.

I don't think so! Either "apatheist" doesn't apply or you ain't even close to apatheist. Because the person who gave the above answer would not be here. There is a big difference between, "I don't find the question interesting enough to spend time thinking about it" and "don't think it really matters whether the quesion is yes or no". The latter in fact was the answer my father gave to the question. It was based I think on a Deist sort of conception of God, but he basically said that he didn't know and didn't think the answer had anything to do with our lives one way or another.

...ignoring the rest of KTR's typical bigotted nonsense rhetoric...

[Keep The Reason]

"I never found the question very interesting or meaningful and still don't. I have more important things to think about."

Apatheist. Couldn't care about the issue one way or the other.

I'm close to this in some ways.

I don't think so! Either "apatheist" doesn't apply or you ain't even close to apatheist. Because the person who gave the above answer would not be here. There is a big difference between, "I don't find the question interesting enough to spend time thinking about it" and "don't think it really matters whether the quesion is yes or no". The latter in fact was the answer my father gave to the question. It was based I think on a Deist sort of conception of God, but he basically said that he didn't know and didn't think the answer had anything to do with our lives one way or another.

...ignoring the rest of KTR's typical bigotted nonsense rhetoric...

If theism was not a potent force, I wouldn't give a damn about it because the issue is resolved -- just like I don't give a dam about the existence of Isis either. And neither do any of you, I'd wager. Until one of you theists can demonstrate your claims, you're just jawwin'.

Oh, and BTW, if you're going to really "ignore KTR's typical bigoted nonsense" -- maybe you should just do that instead of asserting you'd ignore it by pointing it out, hypocrite.

[Dr Mundo]

Sorry, I don't think I'm following this conversation. Apparently I'm a bit too slow! One last question I do have though, is if you say "I don't have any beliefs about God," then how in the world can you say anyone's definition is the wrong one.

I can only say someone is more than likely wrong about their claims of God when compared to what we actually know, with current evidence, about the real world. Jesus was supposedly born of a virgin, Well all the evidence shows that you need a Sperm and Egg, so you could be born of a virgin through artificial insemination, The fact is though that we don't have a Sperm cell donor to verify that, that's how Jesus was born. Yahweh is supposed to have formed Humans out of the dust of the earth in One creation event, current evidence suggests that we are decedents of millions of years of an evolutionary processes that has lead to our current physiological and psychological characteristics. Yahweh is supposed to have Flooded the entire world with water that covered even the tallest mountain tops, current evidence suggests no such flood has occurred, based on our current understanding of Geology. Also Jesus is said to have raised the dead, we also have no evidence of this even being possible. Also this God, is supposed to be all knowing, but he didn't know where Adam and Eve went after eating the fruit. He is supposed to be all loving, yet he sends people to hell who don't believe in him. He is supposed to be all Just, when the very act of cursing Humanity for the actions of his first humans, and then punishing them is unjust.(by the way so is his plan for pardoning humanity for their wicked ways, which he cursed us with. Which is Him pretending to die so that we could throw our sins, onto the body of Christ, instead of being held personally responsible for our actions.) When comparing this legend/mythology of what some people wanted their God to be like, you can see that it is most likely not the case these events took place or that they were the work of God. Because here is the most important part, We have never been able to prove such a Being exists. So yes, I don't know what God would be like. But when we use what Jesus/Yahweh is supposed to have done and compare it to the world we know and understand, I find it remarkably unconvincing. But you are right I don't "know" and that is why I am an Agnostic. (please note this has nothing to do with Atheist or Theist, you could be an Agnostic Atheist, or an Agnostic Theist)

If I proposed that mitch here was actually God (don't get any ideas mitch) how would you go about proving to me that he wasn't actually God if you "don't have any beliefs about God"? Well, it's impossible to prove to me that he's not god if you have no criterion which this hypothetical God of yours would have to possess.

Well, I can't prove to you that Mitch is not God. First you would have to give me a few examples of what characteristics God would have and then we could compare them to Mitch. I personally don't know what God would be like so I can only go by what you want to define God as. After you have done that then we can begin the examination of that claim. If they share the exact same attributes and there is no difference between your definition of God and a description of the characteristic of Mitch, Ok ill call Mitch your definition of God.

[Dr Mundo]

"I never found the question very interesting or meaningful and still don't. I have more important things to think about."

Apatheist. Couldn't care about the issue one way or the other.

I'm close to this in some ways.

I don't think so! Either "apatheist" doesn't apply or you ain't even close to apatheist. Because the person who gave the above answer would not be here. There is a big difference between, "I don't find the question interesting enough to spend time thinking about it" and "don't think it really matters whether the quesion is yes or no". The latter in fact was the answer my father gave to the question. It was based I think on a Deist sort of conception of God, but he basically said that he didn't know and didn't think the answer had anything to do with our lives one way or another.

...ignoring the rest of KTR's typical bigotted nonsense rhetoric...

Mitch you don't get it. While the question about the existence of God is also very unimportant to me. The thing that isn't of little importance is the affect that these beliefs have had on our civilizations. Its been a strong one, absolutely no denying that fact. I agree with KTR on this one. The question about God's existence is not important to me at all "right now". Once there is a hint of evidence to show it though It will be very interesting as that will potentially have huge implications on how we conduct our scientific studies in the future. But for now, to use a phrase that you seem to be particularly fond of, its all a bunch of "hot air". What isn't just "hot air" is the fact that People to this day are being discriminated against based largely on religious teachings, the fact that people are blowing them selves, along with other innocents, up in the name of their God, whether it be Muslims or Christians doing the killing i could care less, Its the fact that they BOTH do it that I care about. (They do it in the name of their God too). We have to stand up to these religious teachings because we genuinely care about others. It has to start somewhere and for me its right here on these forums. Even the people who are liberal Christians need to hear these things, because guess what Mitch they are coming to their conclusions the same way these other more harmful beliefs are, Faith! KTR and others like him are nothing more then advocates of reason, rather than the Bigots full of intolerance that you think they are. (me included)