Ep. 97: Human evil

[Emery]

Human evil is the topic as we remember the events of 9-11 that occurred 10 years ago. Is evil something we can separate from the human experience, or is it merely one side of an essential part of our being?

[mitchellmckain]

That is a curious question for this forum. I am not at all sure where you think that Christians would stand on this. I think that the Christian point of view is that evil is something we can separate from the human experience. I seriously doubt that atheists are definitively on either of these two sides, but that some would say that evil can be separated from us and that others would say that it is an essential part of our being.

[Emery]

I agree Mitch. Separating evil from the human character, however, seems impossible to me. It conjures up some sort of 1960s lobotomy. What is your understanding of how it works? How can it be done without destroying the very free will and mortality that defines humans and distinguishes them from God?

[Evil Eye]

Evil is not a thing.

Here's how I conceptualize it.

Think of a Yard-stick. There are 36 inches on it.

When you are born, you begin at the far end of the yard stick. 36 inches.

As you experience life, you can only lose at the beginning. You can later gain back toward perfect goodness, or lose more toward that last inch. But you can never fall off the zero end of the ruler. That would mean you never existed. And you can never go beyond 36 inches. That would be greater than any God that could be perceived.

All of the 36 inches contains good.... but it is judged based on who is higher on the stick. If you are 12... you are considered more evil than someone at 24. But the 24 is not as good as a 30. etc....

Even Hitler could not be a zero. He did good things for people he liked. That is not perfect evil.

[mitchellmckain]

Separating evil from the human character, however, seems impossible to me. It conjures up some sort of 1960s lobotomy.

If we were talking about removing our capacity to do evil then I would agree. But if I believed that we could separate our humanity from the capacity to do evil then the philosophical conundrum called "the problem of evil" would be unsolvable, because then we must question why God did not create us separate from this capacity in the first place.

What is your understanding of how it works? How can it be done without destroying the very free will and mortality that defines humans and distinguishes them from God?

First of all my definition of evil is the pursuit of ones desires at the expense of the well being of others. It arises from an inbalance between power and regard for the well being of others. An infant has neither. Therefore the selfishness of an infant is perfectly natural. But as the infant grows and gains various powers such as speech and manipulating the world around him, he must also learn to regard the well being of others.

Therefore parenting plays a key role in this. And the most significant factor in parenting is the regard that the parents have for the child because it is from this that the child learns this regard for others. But this is not all there is to it by any means. There are bad habits that disrupt this balance in a number of ways. There are habits that blow desires all out proportion so that the regard we have learned for others is over ridden and even to the point of diminishing our free will to a shadow of what it was. There are habits that destroy our ability to learn, such as the refusal to acknowledge and take responsibility for our mistakes.

And so the separation of humanity not from the capacity to do evil but from the will to do evil is one that takes learning to love and good habits that keep desires in perspective and promote greater learning, awareness and free will.

Now I am sure this sounds like things we can do ourselves without religion. But this is just because I don't think it is a matter of magic but very realistic and practical changes in humanity. Nevertheless I would say that this is a spiritual change in mankind because I connect the spirit with the choices we make. I think the contention of Christianity is that because our bad habits we lack the basic abilities and free will to make these changes. On the other hand, you should also remember that I believe in a God that created life on this planet by means of evolution and thus that His hand in things is a subtle one even if it is crucial. Also I certainly don't think that the work of God is restricted to any religion or even to religion in general, but I have every expectation that things like atheism and humanism are as much a part of the work of God as anything else.

Evil is not a thing.

Well it is an abstract concept, which is certainly a different sort of thing than a chair or a brain.

Here's how I conceptualize it.

Think of a Yard-stick. There are 36 inches on it.

When you are born, you begin at the far end of the yard stick. 36 inches.

As you experience life, you can only lose at the beginning. You can later gain back toward perfect goodness, or lose more toward that last inch. But you can never fall off the zero end of the ruler. That would mean you never existed. And you can never go beyond 36 inches. That would be greater than any God that could be perceived.

All of the 36 inches contains good.... but it is judged based on who is higher on the stick. If you are 12... you are considered more evil than someone at 24. But the 24 is not as good as a 30. etc....

Even Hitler could not be a zero. He did good things for people he liked. That is not perfect evil.

Correct, evil cannot exist by itself. You cannot corrupt or destroy without something to do it to. Evil is like a parasite or disease in that sense.

[Evil Eye]

By the way (just for clarity)... My screen name has nothing to do with the topic. It's a song title I used for my name over 10 years ago when I got online.

[Keep The Reason]

I haven't listened to the entire podcast but really, the entirety of Christianity is founded more on revenge than it is justice. That is why we cannot fathom infinite penalty for finite crime-- it's not justice to torment someone for eternity for anything they might do[/i]. It's also not moral, but the stakes really go through the roof when torment for eternity is predicated on the lack of belief.

I am of the opinion that evil is subjective, and of human invention. There is no "objective" evil. Usually the example for this is "Is it always wrong to torture babies for fun?" Well, to humans of course it's not because subjectively, this affects us directly.

But I can imagine a scenario where this wouldn't be "evil" in any objective manner. For instance, what if there is a species that feeds off the energy created by living things being tormented? From the perspective of this being, torturing a baby "for fun" is needed for its survival. Certainly there exists creatures on Earth whose survival relies on feeding on living creatures, very possibly tormenting them-- a species of wasp lays its eggs in a caterpillar and whose larvae devour the host --leaving its vitals to last -- while it's alive. Viruses are not much different-- they don't care that they may cause massive torment and suffering -- but do so in order to survive and replicate.

This is how life evolved, and when we discuss evil, if we look at it clearly, we can see that evil generally forms around competitive behavior overwhelming cooperative behavior. Since evolution is a balance of competition and cooperation, any tilt too far in one direction or the other will result in extremities that cannot last for long. Too cooperative, and you get taken advantage of. Too competitive, and you take advantage of others.

Our perspective is that a guy like Hitler is evil. Yes, he is because his competitive perspective overwhelmed his cooperative one. He harbored hatreds that translated into acts of cruelty, even though he thought internally (so he expressed in writing) that to do so was of a "greater good" (it was obviously not, but obvious to those of whom his evil affected, and, in the end, his choices led to his own self destruction; this is evolutionary as well-- nature seeks that balance, and if you push it too far one way, eventually it will push right back at you).

The 9/11 murderers also thought they were doing good, in doing the will of Allah which certainly has not shied away from incorporating revenge as part of its moral foundation. The murderers adopted highly selfish (competitive) motives. They were to "achieve paradise" by killing others in Allah's name. What is this other than selfishness, amplified through the filter of religious belief? Were they evil incarnate? Only as it applies to those of us sickened by their acts, those within whom the balance is in play, and not too far tipped one way or the other.

But is it? Do we ever really consider the consequences of our actions? In a movie called "Air Force One" the villain, played notably by Gary Oldham, says to the kidnapped president (Harrison Ford, who is a superhero in it), "Your people allow the killing of hundreds of thousands of people in order to save a nickel on a gallon of gasoline and you call me a monster?"

So when we bitch and complain about gas prices, and thus create a nation of car users who suck the oil out of the ground like greedy pigs at the teat of an exhausted sow, plus damage the environment, plus spend endless billions to protect these interests at the expense of other more important needs just so we can make it easier for us to go to the grocery store or spend a day at the beach-- are we evil?

So these standards need to be weighed. And it's not a pretty picture. A psychotic person walks among us (far many more than we might be aware), and we call that person evil, especially when he acts out his psychosis -- but is it wiring? Is it environment? Is it part of evolution and natural selection, perhaps gone awry? And even as the victims of such an individual, do we really want that person to suffer for eternity? MY animal emotions are like any others-- based purely on emotional hijacking, I do want that perpetrator to suffer -- and "suffer forever" sounds pretty good to my bloodthirsty reptilian brain. But my higher rational person says, "No-- repaying an act of finite evil with eternal evil is the truer definition of evil." So while I am in favor of punishment for evil, if only to act as a barrier to its adoption, I am not for eternal punishment of any act, no matter how cruel or insane or destructive it might have been.

[Keep The Reason]

First of all my definition of evil is the pursuit of ones desires at the expense of the well being of others. It arises from an inbalance between power and regard for the well being of others. An infant has neither. Therefore the selfishness of an infant is perfectly natural. But as the infant grows and gains various powers such as speech and manipulating the world around him, he must also learn to regard the well being of others.

For the record, this is precisely what is meant by competition (selfishness) and cooperation (altruism), albeit said in a different way. MM and I don't agree on much, but maybe we agree on this.

[jambijuce]

mitchellmckain wrote:

But if I believed that we could separate our humanity from the capacity to do evil then the philosophical conundrum called "the problem of evil" would be unsolvable, because then we must question why God did not create us separate from this capacity in the first place.

I thought Adam and Eve were created separate from evil but given the ability to choose it if they were so inclined; no? I believe the conundrum is still intact - for you anyway.

In my opinion, it's easy to assert that evil exists and give numerous examples of it, but I'm inclined to agree with the sentiment that Emery and KTR eluded to: without a frame of reference to compare evil and good, it is difficult (if not impossible) to define evil. If you describe it as "human evil", most people would agree that it exists. To me, it is purely subjective. A good illustration of how subjective it is can be understood by asking yourself if evil exists in the animal kingdom. When a cat plays with a mouse before eating it (or just killing it) is the cat evil? If yes, why? If no, why not?

[jakswan]

Enjoyed the show as ever, you do a great podcast!

In the UK we recently had a BBC documentary on the question of good or evil. I'm not sure if you will be able to access but

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... d_or_Evil/

It was quite amazing to watch. Basically psychopaths are pretty common and part of the brains simply do not function so I think science is making progress in this area.

If you are not a psychopath don't you need an ideology to do evil. In the case of 9/11 they clearly had one which was religion which was a question that never really came up in the podcast.

[mitchellmckain]

But if I believed that we could separate our humanity from the capacity to do evil then the philosophical conundrum called "the problem of evil" would be unsolvable, because then we must question why God did not create us separate from this capacity in the first place.

I thought Adam and Eve were created separate from evil but given the ability to choose it if they were so inclined; no? I believe the conundrum is still intact - for you anyway.

LOL What YOU think about Adam and Eve hardly merits any conclusions whatsoever about how I deal with the problem of evil.

Yes Adam and Eve were give the ability to choose, what we call free will. Thus as I explained they had the capacity to evil and this free will or capacity to do evil is NOT seperable from what we are. It is inseparable from the whole idea of life itself. God could indeed choose whether to create life or not, but the possibility of evil is part of the package. God could indeed choose to remain in absolute control and thus tolerate no will but His own to have any effect on anything. But God saw value in this idea of life, and I personally cannot think of anything that would be more worthwhile to such a being than the creation of life regardless of the risks.

[jambijuce]

Kind of like the man who "has to" beat his wife so she'll understand how much he loves her, eh, Mitch? He'd rather not have to do it but she chooses to do the things she does and he cares enough to give her consequences for her actions so she can understand how great he is and allow her to be worthy of his love. Nice.

[Keep The Reason]

LOL What YOU think about Adam and Eve hardly merits any conclusions whatsoever about how I deal with the problem of evil.

AND... What YOU think about Adam and Eve hardly merits any conclusions whatsoever about how anyone deal with the problem of evil.

In fact, you don't "deal" with it at all. You mouth nothing but specious assertions. Let's illustrate:

Yes Adam and Eve were give the ability to choose, what we call free will.

Demonstrate there was an "Adam" or an "Eve". If you can't, you aren't "dealing" with the problem of evil from the very first moments of your position.

Demonstrate with examples that we objectively have free will. define what "free" means. Do we have the free will to leap naked into mid air from 30,000 feet, fly safely, land, and do it again?

Thus as I explained they had the capacity to evil and this free will or capacity to do evil is NOT seperable from what we are. It is inseparable from the whole idea of life itself.

Define, objectively, what "evil" is. Demonstrate how the definition applies outside of human experience.

God could indeed choose whether to create life or not, but the possibility of evil is part of the package. God could indeed choose to remain in absolute control and thus tolerate no will but His own to have any effect on anything. But God saw value in this idea of life, and I personally cannot think of anything that would be more worthwhile to such a being than the creation of life regardless of the risks.

Define "God", demonstrate its existence, and explain why such a being could not have a completely different set of rules that doesn't involve the so-far undefined "evil".

You see? You don't "deal" with evil whatsoever. You assert undefined, empty, undemonstrated, subjectively meaningless sops to the actual problem of evil, and think you've somehow addressed the problem and thereby allows you to engage in douchebaggery attacks on people trying to converse with you civilly.

I'd just thought I'd expose more of your hot-air rudeness and knee-jerk bigotry towards people who may not believe as you do. You know, your "Business As Usual" hypocrisy.

Have a nice weekend.

[Rian]

I agree Mitch. Separating evil from the human character, however, seems impossible to me. It conjures up some sort of 1960s lobotomy. What is your understanding of how it works? How can it be done without destroying the very free will and mortality that defines humans and distinguishes them from God?

I see free will as an essential part of who God is, and who humans (in His image) are. My thoughts are this: there are certain things that I COULD do, like murder my kids, but CAN'T do, although I'm physically capable of doing it and I have free will. I just couldn't do it. My guess is that it will be like that in heaven, but just completed to include everything wrong, and thus we have complete free will but will be without sin. Have you thought of it that way?

[mitchellmckain]

Kind of like the man who "has to" beat his wife so she'll understand how much he loves her, eh, Mitch? He'd rather not have to do it but she chooses to do the things she does and he cares enough to give her consequences for her actions so she can understand how great he is and allow her to be worthy of his love. Nice.

What is kind of like the man who has to beat is wife? You? Is that what you do?

Life includes the ability to choose. Love includes the ability to choose. God valued life and love more than absolute control over everything and so he created life.

It is just an unfortunate consequence of this that there will be those who choose in opposition to the value that God sees in life and love, choosing death and hatred. Growth is a part of life and some will choose not to grow but remain in an infantile fascination with destruction and evil. There will be those like you who say that they have to beat their wife. We just have to make the best of things and continue with our faith in love and life in spite of their choices.