Rian wrote:Thank you. And I'll provide Bible verses because that's what you requested (you wanted to see what the Bible says on it), not because I'm saying "the Bible says it, so it's right", OK?
Yeah I get you. I know you know that for me the bible has absolutely no authority and I don't even think its got any morality I want to take away from it, as far as I can see. The only reason we need to talk about it in terms of what the bible says about prayer is because if we don't, its just your opinion on what "God" wants from us in the form of prayer. Unless you can demonstrate to me that your understanding based on some sort of evidence is sound then we can skip the bible references in this discussion and talk about your interpretation on Prayer. If you don't have any then all we can talk about is the bible no?
Are you able to demonstrate that Prayer is an effective method for accomplishing A goal. If you had breast cancer, Would prayer be a better alternative to medical treatments for it? Why or why Not.
I think it boils down to that there are more important things than medical healing, and any rational person would choose to drop a lesser request if, by doing so, they achieved a greater.
I know its a hard question to answer for you, but be real honest. "If" you could only chose one of the options which would it be? And what is the reason for making that choice? If you think hard about it, its the same reason for me. That answer is a very easy one for me however. I would chose medicine every time, without a moments hesitation.
And I have some first-hand experience with this, as you've probably heard by now - I have a chronic illness that has put me in constant pain and fatigue every day of my life for the last 25 years.
yeah sorry to hear
And believe me, I've asked to be healed!
Why do you suppose that God hasn't healed you?
And on top of that, since we've moved to Arizona, I've had 3 surgeries and multiple complications with the surgeries. Yet God is with me in these painful places,
How do you know God is with you in the painful places. How do you know its not just your mind trying to help you cope with a stressful situation the only way its been trained to, by giving you a comforting feeling of never being alone no matter how bad things get, you will always have a being (all powerful even) with you at your side. Is there a way that you can tell when God is with you and when he isn't?
and I've learned SO many deep truths, and I've had SO many soul issues healed, that I can say if I had a choice to go back and be perfectly healthy, I don't know that I would choose that. It's not that physical illness is good in itself; it's just that it seems that there are some soul issues that can only be healed, and some deep truths that can only be learned, through physical illness. And I value the heart over the physical. And so does God, according to the Bible.
While I would never want to nor do I think it would even be possible to force you to not believe such things, I would love it if people would opt for their physical bodies to be well rather than thinking they are doing some sort of "soul growth" because from where I stand, you are not really gaining anything. All you seem to be doing is trying the best you can to make the best out of a shitty situation and trying to find some sort of silver lining. Yes its a bad situation we find ourselves in physically sometimes, But instead of dealing with it, there are people (like you) who insert some sort of positive, made up or otherwise, to make them selves feel better.
Jesus clearly illustrates this in the story in Matthew 9, where his first response when seeing a paralyzed man is to tell him that his sins are forgiven,
I won't even get started on what I think about a God/Man who needs to pardon "sins" which seem more like natural human behavior to me. that is an other topic we can discuss at great length, I think, some other time.
So, for your first sentence, I think the biggest issue here is what we think are the more important goals. I think that prayer is very effective in accomplishing goals that I think are very important, as I'll explain further in the next section.
You said you would explain further but I didn't see an explanation of when Prayer is successful. What goals do you think are being accomplished by prayer exactly? If you are saying what KTR is saying about prayer as having some sort of placebo effect, in which the calming of ones body due to relaxation and meditation are what is impactful about prayer than you will have no argument from me, I can see that as very possible. What I would need more evidence for though is the prayers that are said to be answered, as in God (in one way or another) interacting with our world to actualize the prayer.
Also, still on this topic, do you think it would be a good thing for prayer to accomplish things on demand for anyone? Why or why not?
No I don't. That system wouldn't seem fair. Unless it happened for everyone, but some people could very well be asking for things that are mutually exclusive to the prayers of others, So instead I much prefer the way things appear to be right now. Instead of anyone getting what they want magically, we work hard and often work together to make certain goals come to fruition.
With that said though there are bible passages to support the ask and you shall receive type of prayer.
For your second and third sentences, I don't see any downside to any ethical medical treatment, nor do I see any Biblical imperative to avoid medical treatment, and prayer is always good.
My question is much simpler than that though Rian,
You have cancer, Pick ONE
of the following treatments.
O Modern medicine
please note you are to only pick one. Which would it be and what is your justification for selecting the one.
I know for you, its both but given the choices do you see any benefits that one choice has that the other doesn't?