Dr M's points on prayer, eternity, and a few other things

[Rian]

But was it whole milk, or some form of lower-fat milk?

[JustJim]

But was it whole milk, or some form of lower-fat milk?

Yes...

Jim

[cleve]

But was it whole milk, or some form of lower-fat milk?

Yes...

Jim

But it was bit sour.

[Rian]

There we go, Cleve! That was more what I was looking for

I gave you a good opening, Jim, and I was hoping for something funnier from you! Ah well ...

Anyway, if atheists think that that milk jug bit is something good, then we Christians have nothing to worry about! Seriously, how can you prove that the outcome is coincidental?

Here's the same setup - A father has two sons. This father is currently away in the military. When they want to get something, the older son writes the father a letter asking for it, and the younger son writes a letter to a milk jug asking for it. Sometimes they end up getting it, sometimes they end up not getting it, sometimes the answer is wait. Clearly, since we all know the milk jug doesn't answer requests, and the result was the same whether the milk jug was asked or the father was asked, the outcome is coincidental and the father had nothing to do with it?

Of course not!

Really bad reasoning.

Plus, it's just irrational to say flat-out that there is no God. For one thing, in order to know this, you have to have God-like powers, and I seriously doubt if this chap has that. And yet, over and over, he makes these god-like pronouncements of certain knowledge

And I agree that the "if you're smart, you'll agree with me" is repugnant. - he uses the ad populum fallacy, too.

[Rian]

Thank you. And I'll provide Bible verses because that's what you requested (you wanted to see what the Bible says on it), not because I'm saying "the Bible says it, so it's right", OK?

Yeah I get you. I know you know that for me the bible has absolutely no authority and I don't even think its got any morality I want to take away from it, as far as I can see. The only reason we need to talk about it in terms of what the bible says about prayer is because if we don't, its just your opinion on what "God" wants from us in the form of prayer. Unless you can demonstrate to me that your understanding based on some sort of evidence is sound then we can skip the bible references in this discussion and talk about your interpretation on Prayer. If you don't have any then all we can talk about is the bible no?

I don't think we can prove anything to each other in areas like this, but I think it's valid to ask a Christian what the Bible says on prayer. That's what you're doing, right? We're not agreeing on the authority of the Bible; we're just discussing what it says, because I, as a Christian, take the Bible as authoritative. I'll also share my experience with prayer with you as we go along, just for more information and because I think it's relevant.

Are you able to demonstrate that Prayer is an effective method for accomplishing A goal. If you had breast cancer, Would prayer be a better alternative to medical treatments for it? Why or why Not.

I think it boils down to that there are more important things than medical healing, and any rational person would choose to drop a lesser request if, by doing so, they achieved a greater.

I know its a hard question to answer for you, but be real honest. "If" you could only chose one of the options which would it be? And what is the reason for making that choice? If you think hard about it, its the same reason for me. That answer is a very easy one for me however. I would chose medicine every time, without a moments hesitation.

Part of the discussion is this : what IS a valid question? If you were teaching math, and someone asked you this question: "Does 2 + 2 = red?" then wouldn't you point out that that isn't a valid question?

To me, your question isn't valid. They can't be mutually exclusive. It's like asking "which would you prefer to keep - your heart or your brain?" You need both. Do you see what I mean?

Rats - pizza just came - gtg, will finish soon. Can you hold off until I finish your post?

[Dr Mundo]

Part of the discussion is this : what IS a valid question? If you were teaching math, and someone asked you this question: "Does 2 + 2 = red?" then wouldn't you point out that that isn't a valid question?

To me, your question isn't valid. They can't be mutually exclusive. It's like asking "which would you prefer to keep - your heart or your brain?" You need both. Do you see what I mean?

I knew that this would be your response. I almost didn't want to ask it but I thought maybe if you thought about it and saw it the way I do you would understand my perspective on it. Oh well...

Can you hold off until I finish your post?

apparently not


But look at it like this. lets say we have 3 choices, and 3 people to make 1 choice.
1.Medicine
2.Prayer
3.Medicine/prayer super combo

The first person gets to pick any of the three. But once the person picks that option is removed from the list. The second person gets to pick one out of the remaining two choices. and Third person gets the left overs.

You randomly get assigned numbers and we introduce a cancer into each of the three participants, the first person picks 3 on the list. You are second to chose. the list is this:
1. Medicine
2.Prayer
3.___________

Which would you pick? What would be your justification for that pick?

[Rian]

apparently not

Part of the discussion is this : what IS a valid question? If you were teaching math, and someone asked you this question: "Does 2 + 2 = red?" then wouldn't you point out that that isn't a valid question?

To me, your question isn't valid. They can't be mutually exclusive. It's like asking "which would you prefer to keep - your heart or your brain?" You need both. Do you see what I mean?

I knew that this would be your response. I almost didn't want to ask it but I thought maybe if you thought about it and saw it the way I do you would understand my perspective on it. Oh well...

I think I do understand your question, Dr. M. You're asking which do I think will give the best/most valuable results - prayer or medicine - and furthermore, you seem to be defining "most valuable" as "most valuable to physical health". Is that right?

However, I think you missed my point, and step-wise, that needs to come before your question - we need to debate whether or not all questions are valid questions (i.e., do they make sense, or are they something along the lines of "does 2 plus 2 = red", which is a nonsensical question, IMO - do you agree?). You are asking about what the Bible says on prayer, so we're talking about assuming a Biblical worldview frame of reference here, and what you're asking is nonsensical within that worldview. Do you see that? Do you agree?

But look at it like this. lets say we have 3 choices, and 3 people to make 1 choice.
1.Medicine
2.Prayer
3.Medicine/prayer super combo ...

I love your "super combo" term but we really can't discuss this until we decide on the valid question issue, wouldn't you say?

But even though I said all of that, and I have a strong objection on the table, I'll still attempt to answer, because you've shown integrity in the discussion and I feel I can trust you :

The first person gets to pick any of the three. But once the person picks that option is removed from the list. The second person gets to pick one out of the remaining two choices. and Third person gets the left overs.

You randomly get assigned numbers and we introduce a cancer into each of the three participants, the first person picks 3 on the list. You are second to chose. the list is this:
1. Medicine
2.Prayer
3.___________

Which would you pick? What would be your justification for that pick?

I just typed out a long paragraph in answer, and then realized that you probably meant only prayer specifically to heal the cancer (sorry, I can be dense sometimes), so I deleted what I wrote. Is this what you mean? Which is it? That I could :

A-1) choose medicine, and then I could pray about everything except being healed, or

A-2) choose praying about being healed (and anything else) but not take medicine?

Or did you mean that I could :

B-1) choose to take medicine and stop all prayer about everything, or

B-2) choose pray about anything (including being healed) and not take medicine?

But see, this is illogical on yet another level - prayer isn't all about requests, by any means, and it makes no sense, if one is in prayer, to withhold prayer on anything that is on your mind. It just doesn't work, Dr. M. I'm trying to go along with the spirit of what you're asking, but what you're asking doesn't make sense.

But I'll give it yet another shot, although I feel that I'm laboring under 2 levels of question inaccuracy - I feel that I would choose prayer if I were strong enough to do so, but I'm not always strong enough to choose to do what I think is right (hence my current diet! ) Seriously, I just value the heart/soul more than the physical, and I've seen how many deep truths I've learned through adversity (although adversity isn't good in itself) and how many character flaws that have been healed through adversity. But I still feel that we first need to address, now, THREE things before we can go further:

1) are there invalid questions;

2) is it valid to expect a Christian to NOT pray about anything;

3) is it valid to expect a Christian to ONLY pray about everything.



I've tried to the best of my ability to answer a question that I think is in the category of "does 2 plus 2 = red" - now could you please tackle my points on valid questions?

[Rian]

ok, just to keep track, we have got partway thru your first major post on this thread (I don't want to miss the other points you made). When we're done with this, I'll go back and be sure we hit everything there, although in the course of this discussion, we may end up hitting those things anyway.

[Dr Mundo]

I think I do understand your question, Dr. M. You're asking which do I think will give the best/most valuable results - prayer or medicine - and furthermore, you seem to be defining "most valuable" as "most valuable to physical health". Is that right?

Yes that is right.

However, I think you missed my point, and step-wise, that needs to come before your question - we need to debate whether or not all questions are valid questions (i.e., do they make sense, or are they something along the lines of "does 2 plus 2 = red", which is a nonsensical question, IMO - do you agree?).

2+2=red is really very different from what I am asking, in any case 2x+2x=4x not redx. so that would be an easy question to answer. the answer of does 2+2=red is, No it doesn't.

You are asking about what the Bible says on prayer, so we're talking about assuming a Biblical worldview frame of reference here, and what you're asking is nonsensical within that worldview. Do you see that? Do you agree?

I don't see that and I don't agree. In the bible it seems pretty clear that if you ask for something in the name of Jesus you will have it. I am saying that I wouldn't trust Jesus to fix any medical issues I had and that I would chose modern medicine as apposed to choosing praying to Jesus to help me.

I just typed out a long paragraph in answer, and then realized that you probably meant only prayer specifically to heal the cancer (sorry, I can be dense sometimes), so I deleted what I wrote. Is this what you mean? Which is it? That I could :

A-1) choose medicine, and then I could pray about everything except being healed, or

A-2) choose praying about being healed (and anything else) but not take medicine?

Yes this is what I meant.

But see, this is illogical on yet another level - prayer isn't all about requests, by any means, and it makes no sense, if one is in prayer, to withhold prayer on anything that is on your mind. It just doesn't work, Dr. M. I'm trying to go along with the spirit of what you're asking, but what you're asking doesn't make sense.

Oh god, as if things weren't hard enough now we have to go over our definition of prayer
I suppose I will leave this up to you. Would you define prayer, because what I meant was the whole asking Jesus/God things like you see every other Christian do when they say they are going to pray.

But I'll give it yet another shot, although I feel that I'm laboring under 2 levels of question inaccuracy - I feel that I would choose prayer if I were strong enough to do so, but I'm not always strong enough to choose to do what I think is right (hence my current diet! ) Seriously, I just value the heart/soul more than the physical, and I've seen how many deep truths I've learned through adversity (although adversity isn't good in itself) and how many character flaws that have been healed through adversity.

Well I'm glad you answered the question, One more thing. Lets say it wasn't your body that was in need of treatment, and say it was your little girl. Do you have the same feelings about the situation now? Would you rather she go through adversity with health issues and just pray that Jesus do what was good for her soul or would you tailor to her physical needs and have medical treatment for her? For me Its really obvious what I would do, and I would think it Child abuse not to treat her medically, mainly because I wouldn't believe she had a soul and seeing her in physical pain would break my heart. ( I don't have any kids at the moment I'm just projecting how I would feel if I did).

1) are there invalid questions;

Yes?

2) is it valid to expect a Christian to NOT pray about anything;

I don't know, there are many different types of Christians all who believe a million different things. I would expect them to answer my questions Honestly so if I ask would you rather only pray than do X. I want an honest answer, that's all I can expect.

3) is it valid to expect a Christian to ONLY pray about everything.

Again I don't know. I will take personal beliefs on an individual basis, because I see Christianity as Immoral and when I point something out that I find disgusting or disturbing, I will inevitably be accused of talking about a Cartoon version of Christianity. So from now on I guess I will just talk to people about what they believe instead of what Christianity believes. Because the issue on what Christianity believes is settled for me, Its immoral and I would no sooner have anything to do with it than with Islam or Racism.

[JustJim]

But was it whole milk, or some form of lower-fat milk?

Yes...

Jim

But it was bit sour.

I guess that explains all the curdles, huh?

Jim

[JustJim]

Anyway, if atheists think that that milk jug bit is something good, then we Christians have nothing to worry about! Seriously, how can you prove that the outcome is coincidental?

It doesn't "prove" it's coincidental, of course, but I think it certainly shows quite clearly that the connection people assume exists between their prayers and the "answers" they experience should NOT be assumed to exist unless it can be shown to exist. Since the same results of "prayer" (yes, no, or wait) can be obtained by praying to a milk jug (or anything else we could pray to), there is no reason to believe your God answers prayers but milk jugs (or other gods) do not. Furthermore, it is not reasonable to attribute rainfall to God's response to prayer, when we know that: 1) rain falls for other reasons, and 2) we have no way to verify that it was God that caused it to rain as an answer to prayer rather than that it rained because of the way rain works in our world, i.e., according to natural processes. Now, if you could somehow demonstrate that when it rains following prayers for rain that it did, in fact, rain BECAUSE of the prayers, that would be a different thing. But you can't. And I should note, by the way, that I understand that it DOES make sense and IS rational to believe God answers prayers and milk jugs don't, within your Christian worldview. But for those of us who don't share a theistic understanding of the world, it doesn't make sense at all to assume such things.

Here's the same setup - A father has two sons.

No, that's NOT the setup. The setup is: There is no father.

But, just to follow along with you,

This father is currently away in the military. When they want to get something, the older son writes the father a letter asking for it, and the younger son writes a letter to a milk jug asking for it. Sometimes they end up getting it, sometimes they end up not getting it, sometimes the answer is wait. Clearly, since we all know the milk jug doesn't answer requests, and the result was the same whether the milk jug was asked or the father was asked, the outcome is coincidental and the father had nothing to do with it?

Of course not!

Really bad reasoning.

Plus, it's just irrational to say flat-out that there is no God. For one thing, in order to know this, you have to have God-like powers, and I seriously doubt if this chap has that. And yet, over and over, he makes these god-like pronouncements of certain knowledge

I wish you'd apply your reasoning to both God and the milk jug. There are lots of problems here, I think, starting with comparing a human father with God.

We can see, hear, smell (unfortunately), touch, taste (yuck!) our human fathers, and we know they can receive, read, and reply to our letters with letters of their own. God, on the other hand, can't be "detected" by any of those means, and "letters" (figuratively speaking) people think come from God can just as well, or even better, be attributed to other sources.

We "all know milk jugs don't answer requests," but we know that God does answer them? How do we "know" that?

It's irrational to say flat-out that there is no God, but it's not equally irrational to say, flat-out, that there is a God?

For me, Rian, the meaningful point of the comparison of praying to God with praying to milk jugs is in the outcomes. Whatever the outcome, we really do "know" that milk jugs don't make it rain, write letters to their sons, heal cancer patients, help people through rough times in their lives, etc. But, can we show that there is a God who does do those things? I'm convinced we cannot. So why do people attribute such things to God's intervention in response to prayer, rather than explain them exactly the same way they would if I claimed it was a milk jug that made it rain, or wrote me a letter, or healed my cancer, or soothed my tortured soul... etc.? I'd really like to see a good answer to that....

Jim

[Keep The Reason]

So why do people attribute such things to God's intervention in response to prayer, rather than explain them exactly the same way they would if I claimed it was a milk jug that made it rain, or wrote me a letter, or healed my cancer, or soothed my tortured soul... etc.? I'd really like to see a good answer to that....
Jim

What would you consider to be a good answer? Would "placebo effect" suffice?

[cleve]

So why do people attribute such things to God's intervention in response to prayer, rather than explain them exactly the same way they would if I claimed it was a milk jug that made it rain, or wrote me a letter, or healed my cancer, or soothed my tortured soul... etc.? I'd really like to see a good answer to that....
Jim

What would you consider to be a good answer? Would "placebo effect" suffice?

Maybe Jim could make a twisted deal with God - so that when Jim asks, God supplies.

[JustJim]

So why do people attribute such things to God's intervention in response to prayer, rather than explain them exactly the same way they would if I claimed it was a milk jug that made it rain, or wrote me a letter, or healed my cancer, or soothed my tortured soul... etc.? I'd really like to see a good answer to that....
Jim

What would you consider to be a good answer? Would "placebo effect" suffice?

I think the placebo effect of prayer is real, and that it's valuable to the people doing the praying. Their belief that their prayers are being heard and answered, even if they don't always get the answers they were hoping for, helps them to feel good and to make some sense of things that are difficult to explain. It helps resolve lots of conflict between what they believe and what they observe, so that unfairness, injustice, cruelty, and painful experiences in their lives have some "meaning" for them. In a way, it makes it possible for them not to sport bumper stickers that say "Shit Happens" on their cars. For them, that's not true. Shit does NOT just "happen;" it has a purpose and is ultimately "for the good" of us all. That goes a long way in making an otherwise often stinky world smell better. And it most certainly enables them to hold on to a positive view of life and the way the universe is. I think that's a good thing - for them.

However, the fact that prayer is good for the person doing the praying really has nothing to do with whether prayer is actually answered. By anyone or anything - gods and milk jugs included. So no, the placebo effect would not suffice as a good answer to my question....

Jim

[JustJim]

Maybe Jim could make a twisted deal with God - so that when Jim asks, God supplies.

Clever, Cleve. Except that people who don't believe God exists would never make deals with a God they don't believe exists. You often don't seem to understand what it means to be an atheist and not believe God exists. You seem to comment and respond to atheists as though you think they really know God exists, but refuse to acknowledge that. That's a mistake, Cleve....

Jim