Dr M's points on prayer, eternity, and a few other things

[Rian]

I think I do understand your question, Dr. M. You're asking which do I think will give the best/most valuable results - prayer or medicine - and furthermore, you seem to be defining "most valuable" as "most valuable to physical health". Is that right?

Yes that is right.

OK, we're good there, then.

However, I think you missed my point, and step-wise, that needs to come before your question - we need to debate whether or not all questions are valid questions (i.e., do they make sense, or are they something along the lines of "does 2 plus 2 = red", which is a nonsensical question, IMO - do you agree?).

2+2=red is really very different from what I am asking, in any case 2x+2x=4x not redx. so that would be an easy question to answer. the answer of does 2+2=red is, No it doesn't.

OK, then, it was a flawed example. But what about the concept? Do you think that there can be questions that can't be answered until they are valid questions?

See, the problem that I have with your example is that it's a form of the false dilemma fallacy. Those aren't the only two valid options, nor are they contradictory, yet you're trying to force a decision between them. That's why we can't have a meaningful discussion on that question. We'll have to adjust a few things first.

You are asking about what the Bible says on prayer, so we're talking about assuming a Biblical worldview frame of reference here, and what you're asking is nonsensical within that worldview. Do you see that? Do you agree?

I don't see that and I don't agree. In the bible it seems pretty clear that if you ask for something in the name of Jesus you will have it.

Now this is more clear than your example. We should probably take it from here now. I was reacting against your example because it was just something that would never happen and it was hitting issues that I don't think are possibilities. So shall we drop the example and just start here?

But see, this is illogical on yet another level - prayer isn't all about requests, by any means, and it makes no sense, if one is in prayer, to withhold prayer on anything that is on your mind. It just doesn't work, Dr. M. I'm trying to go along with the spirit of what you're asking, but what you're asking doesn't make sense.

Oh god, as if things weren't hard enough now we have to go over our definition of prayer
I suppose I will leave this up to you. Would you define prayer, because what I meant was the whole asking Jesus/God things like you see every other Christian do when they say they are going to pray.

OK, yes, let's start here, being sure to hit the asking angle of things.

But I'll give it yet another shot, although I feel that I'm laboring under 2 levels of question inaccuracy - I feel that I would choose prayer if I were strong enough to do so, but I'm not always strong enough to choose to do what I think is right (hence my current diet! ) Seriously, I just value the heart/soul more than the physical, and I've seen how many deep truths I've learned through adversity (although adversity isn't good in itself) and how many character flaws that have been healed through adversity.

Well I'm glad you answered the question, One more thing. Lets say it wasn't your body that was in need of treatment, and say it was your little girl. Do you have the same feelings about the situation now? Would you rather she go through adversity with health issues and just pray that Jesus do what was good for her soul or would you tailor to her physical needs and have medical treatment for her? For me Its really obvious what I would do, and I would think it Child abuse not to treat her medically, mainly because I wouldn't believe she had a soul and seeing her in physical pain would break my heart. ( I don't have any kids at the moment I'm just projecting how I would feel if I did).

I think it's child abuse to not treat her medically, too, so we should really drop working with the example (which I feel is a false dilemma, anyway, so we'd need to come to an agreement about a rework of it before going further) and just talk about what is prayer, including the asking part.

[Rian]

Is this ok with you?

[Dr Mundo]

See, the problem that I have with your example is that it's a form of the false dilemma fallacy. Those aren't the only two valid options

All I was really trying to get you to see is the difference between them. I am not saying that I know prayer will never work or that it has never worked, I just don't have any reason to assume that it ever has worked. Its not a false dilemma because I just wanted you to see which one you think is the most beneficial to your physical health. I was hoping you would say Medicine is the most beneficial to your health and that we could go on explaining why it is. Demonstrate that Prayer is beneficial at all and then you have a case for choosing prayer, but until you do you are just making unsupported claims about the power of prayer.

nor are they contradictory

Not saying they are necessarily contradictory but it is possible to separate them, for instance you could have one without the other. What I wanted you to see was which you would pick if you had the option of only choosing one. do you see where I was coming from?

yet you're trying to force a decision between them. That's why we can't have a meaningful discussion on that question. We'll have to adjust a few things first.

Its not even a hard question to answer, If you don't know the answer to the question right away ask yourself why not.

Now this is more clear than your example. We should probably take it from here now. I was reacting against your example because it was just something that would never happen and it was hitting issues that I don't think are possibilities. So shall we drop the example and just start here?

I guess, Could someone else please let me know if that question I asked about prayer and medicine was way off base? I feel like it was a good question to get her thinking of the differences between the two and which she felt was more important. I was hoping I wouldn't get the response of on well it would never happen, but I tired.

Oh god, as if things weren't hard enough now we have to go over our definition of prayer
I suppose I will leave this up to you. Would you define prayer, because what I meant was the whole asking Jesus/God things like you see every other Christian do when they say they are going to pray.

OK, yes, let's start here, being sure to hit the asking angle of things.

Ok then define Prayer for us please.

[Rian]

What about the case when I pray about the cancer and I feel that the answer to prayer is to seek medical treatment?

[Keep The Reason]

What about the case when I pray about the cancer and I feel that the answer to prayer is to seek medical treatment?

You don't need prayer for that. You already have the understanding that when disease comes to you, you seek medical advice on how to treat it.

[Dr Mundo]

What about the case when I pray about the cancer and I feel that the answer to prayer is to seek medical treatment?

This implies that you chose Prayer over medical treatment. I personally would have skipped the whole prayer for something I already knew I should have done. And oh by the way what type of response to your Prayer would you have gotten? A direct voice saying "Go see a Doctor!"? or perhaps something else?

Either way I think you missed the point of the question. I just wanted you to see the difference between them. One has testable and predictable results. And the other seems indistinguishable from random chance? How do you know its God answering your Prayers? How do you know it wasn't already going to happen (the thing you asked for)? Some people Pray to Allah for success in their Job, and when they get it they think Allah had something to do with it. When in reality there is no way that we know of to accurately distinguish from when it was Allah getting that person a promotion or when it was just the hard work this person put into his Job that got him that promotion.

[Rian]

I see your point, but I don't think you see mine - that it's not even a plausible option. But I think I see the goal behind your questioning (what gives the better "results", right?), and I think the best way to deal with that is to back up and go to the question about what I think prayer is.

I think I'll throw out a bunch of thoughts from different angles, because prayer is a multi-faceted, complex and wonderful thing.

First off - the disciples asked Jesus how to pray, and he gave a suggested format, or jumping-off point - what we call the Lord's prayer. Now looking at that, what percentage of that prayer is the asking-for-things aspect? Not a lot. Therefore, I think it's a pretty safe bet that Jesus didn't think the asking thing is the top priority.

Second - the story of the paralytic guy whose friends lowered him through the roof to get to Jesus in a crowded house - again, Jesus didn't take care of the physical element first. In fact, it looks like he wasn't going to deal with it at all. He clearly thought that the internal/heart issue was the only vital thing, and he did the physical healing ONLY when he saw the people didn't think he had authority to forgive sins. Also, the Bible doesn't record Jesus healing every person he came across, so it just doesn't seem like it's a top priority - it seems that he thinks other things are FAR more important, although it's clearly important to him, too.

Third - There is a section in James that says we ask and don't have because we ask selfishly, so clearly there is no problem with a Christian asking and not getting something. Also, Paul asked God to remove some type of "thorn in the flesh", and states that his prayer wasn't answered the way he wanted it to be - but this wasn't refused on grounds of selfishness; it was refused on grounds of it was better for him to have it. Also, Jesus asked God for something and didn't get it - he asked for the crucifixion to not be necessary - so again, it doesn't seem that the main part of prayer is to get things, nor does not getting what you asked for mean that God didn't hear and consider it.

Anyway, I think that the main purpose of prayer is relational and transformational, and that the eternal soul matters more than temporary physical things, and that hard things are often good teachers for the soul.

Now let me add that I quite agree with you that we can't prove that prayer brought something about. However, we can't prove that it didn't, either. But I don't think that's the main point of prayer, anyway. However, we're told to bring things before God and to ask - and I find that often, it's a process, and what I was asking for in the beginning somehow isn't what I'm asking for anymore further down the road.

[Rian]

Dr M - thoughts?

[Dr Mundo]

Dr M - thoughts?

Only this last thing I can think to say. You and I think differently. Not only do we believe differently but the way we construct thoughts in our heads is different. I suppose based on your posts you don't believe in some sort of magical prayer as in asking God for it to rain and he makes it rain. or asking God to heal your cancer and he heals your cancer. You seem to believe that Prayer just helps guide you to accept things, right? Or perhaps to seek real world answers to these problems you would pray for? I guess I don't understand what the purpose of prayer is for you.

I don't believe in your God or anyone else God for that matter, I do believe that some sort of placebo effect from praying to these Gods might benefit some, but I also think it harms others. If more people tried to seek real world solutions to real life problems, instead of getting on their knees and asking for magical help I think we would be in a far better position to actually make a difference on some problems.

Either way, I don't think I will help you understand where I am coming from, I can either not express my thoughts well enough, or the way you think clouds your vision to see other perspectives when presented to you.

I would be willing to take on any hypothetical and grant you any position you wanted so we could discuss it on your terms, Because if we discuss it on my terms we will never get past God even existing, Because I just don't see it. I would concede any point to you to further the discussion. But if you can not even attempt to reciprocate then I don't see how we can move forward. I asked a very simple question. "IF" you had the choice between ONLY prayer or ONLY modern medicine which would you chose. You kept sort of leaning towards prayer, but I just wish you could have answered clearly, instead of going in circles about how they are not mutually exclusive. When the point of the question was in the event that they were, which would you choose.

[Rian]

Dr M - thoughts?

Only this last thing I can think to say. You and I think differently. Not only do we believe differently but the way we construct thoughts in our heads is different. I suppose based on your posts you don't believe in some sort of magical prayer as in asking God for it to rain and he makes it rain. or asking God to heal your cancer and he heals your cancer. You seem to believe that Prayer just helps guide you to accept things, right? Or perhaps to seek real world answers to these problems you would pray for? I guess I don't understand what the purpose of prayer is for you.

The last two paragraphs in my post explained it a bit, and I'll elaborate a bit more now.

I definitely don't think it's a magical thing, like ask for rain in the right way and you'll get it. That's putting the focus on the thing, not the person behind the thing. I believe that there is a person, or being, on the other end of my prayers - i.e., God - and he is, through no fault of his own , wiser and more powerful than I am. In the Bible, there are many illustrations of how God relates to people that illustrate different aspects of our relationship with God - potter and clay, shepherd and sheep, brothers, father and child, and man and wife. None of these, on God's end, show him as a vending machine that responds to the appropriate coin. They all show him as greater than the human (which again, he can't help - what I mean by this is that some atheists complain that it's somehow a bad thing that humans will never be God, like it's some lack in God's creation ability, but I don't think it is) and responding to the human in love, even if it's tough love. So yes, part of the Lord's Prayer is supplication, but not as an end in itself, and recognizing that as we are NOT omniscient, perhaps we're asking for something that is not the best for us, and the right response of a loving father would be to deny the request. But also, as a loving Father, he wants us to ask, because he loves giving. Yet even more, he loves the relationship. Does that explain it a little more?

I don't believe in your God or anyone else God for that matter, I do believe that some sort of placebo effect from praying to these Gods might benefit some, but I also think it harms others. If more people tried to seek real world solutions to real life problems, instead of getting on their knees and asking for magical help I think we would be in a far better position to actually make a difference on some problems.

All throughout the Bible, God calls us to act to fix real-life problems, as well as pray. That's why I have such an issue with your hypothetical - it doesn't make sense, and I can't answer something that makes no sense.

Either way, I don't think I will help you understand where I am coming from, I can either not express my thoughts well enough, or the way you think clouds your vision to see other perspectives when presented to you.

I think I understand where you're coming from. You thought I didn't, and then I put what you said in my own words, and you said I was right.

I would be willing to take on any hypothetical and grant you any position you wanted so we could discuss it on your terms, Because if we discuss it on my terms we will never get past God even existing, Because I just don't see it.

Well, right, we all need to take up the other person's position at times as a hypothetical so we can discuss the validity and the issues of the position.

I would concede any point to you to further the discussion. But if you can not even attempt to reciprocate then I don't see how we can move forward.

I more than attempted to reciprocate - I went several posts with a very strong objection to the validity of your hypothetical in my worldview. However, it gets to a point where I must draw the line, because we're talking about my worldview, and I can't keep trying to answer things that are impossible in my worldview with any degree of intellectual integrity.

I asked a very simple question. "IF" you had the choice between ONLY prayer or ONLY modern medicine which would you chose. You kept sort of leaning towards prayer, but I just wish you could have answered clearly, instead of going in circles about how they are not mutually exclusive. When the point of the question was in the event that they were, which would you choose.

But the point is that you're asking about MY opinion on prayer, and what you're asking isn't even a valid question, so how can I answer? I don't ever think that God calls us to choose one or the other. It's like you're saying "OK, if you want to live, then which would you choose - only breathing in, or only breathing out?"

They go together.


(ps - sorry this took so long, but I warned you it would be slow. I'd definitely like to keep going.)

[Dr Mundo]

I definitely don't think it's a magical thing, like ask for rain in the right way and you'll get it.

Good, you wont believe the amount of times I have heard people praying for God to guide their surgeons hands during surgery, or to have some influence on the bank so that they can modify their loan. Things like that. Its obviously all silly to me, but its even sillier, to me, that if they think prayer works like that, that they would be expecting that when millions of helpless kids are dying to a many number of things.

So yes, part of the Lord's Prayer is supplication, but not as an end in itself, and recognizing that as we are NOT omniscient, perhaps we're asking for something that is not the best for us, and the right response of a loving father would be to deny the request.

He Could and should explain himself in a concise and direct way. If he wanted to be a loving father. But I very much doubt he will be doing any of that.

But also, as a loving Father, he wants us to ask, because he loves giving. Yet even more, he loves the relationship. Does that explain it a little more?

Do you think that explains anything to me? Not trying to sound rude but, you have no evidence that this is how he thinks, you have no evidence that he even exists. Its just like you telling me about your imaginary friend. All I can say is I don't see it, and none of what you are saying makes sense to me.

All throughout the Bible, God calls us to act to fix real-life problems, as well as pray. That's why I have such an issue with your hypothetical - it doesn't make sense, and I can't answer something that makes no sense.

I'm prepared to drop it already.

I more than attempted to reciprocate - I went several posts with a very strong objection to the validity of your hypothetical in my worldview. However, it gets to a point where I must draw the line, because we're talking about my worldview, and I can't keep trying to answer things that are impossible in my worldview with any degree of intellectual integrity.

And I don't believe that God(s) exist. But I am willing to pretend for a second that I do just so we can keep talking about things that relate to a/many God(s) existing. I don't care about that question anymore so lets just drop it.

But the point is that you're asking about MY opinion on prayer, and what you're asking isn't even a valid question, so how can I answer? I don't ever think that God calls us to choose one or the other. It's like you're saying "OK, if you want to live, then which would you choose - only breathing in, or only breathing out?"

They go together.

This posts makes me sure you still don't get it. So we can finally just move on.

(ps - sorry this took so long, but I warned you it would be slow. I'd definitely like to keep going.)

Its okay, I too have been busy, so no big deal. I would like to keep going also, but we are not getting anywhere with Prayer so we can I guess move on to the other things. If you like I will let you have the last word on prayer if you would like to say one last thing about it. I just don't get the purpose of it (for you), don't understand how it works,or why it works. (obviously I think that it doesn't work but that's not the point of this discussion) so I have nothing else to say about it. I think its a silly practice, I know you don't think this way so it doesn't relate to you, but I think its silly that some people think that God will answer their prayers.

[Moonwood the Hare]

Dr. Mundo
It seems to me that in order to have to choose between prayer and modern medicine you would have to be in a pretty unusual situation and it is the specific features of that situation that would cause you to choose one or the other so without knowing the features of that situation we cannot know what we would or should choose. You might say yes but without going into the details and all other things being equal what would you chose? But all things are never just equal in any meaningful way. Like Rian I would see the purpose of prayer as being to line ourselves up with the power behind the universe; that can include asking for things because it is in asking that we learn what we really want. T. S. Eliot talked of 'the purification of the motive in the ground of our beseeching' He was referring to a medieval writer, it may have been Mother Julian, who said of God that he is the ground of our beseeching. Anyway you get the idea - by making what we want known to God it gets changed and moves in line with his (prescriptive) will.

[Keep The Reason]

Like Rian I would see the purpose of prayer as being to line ourselves up with the power behind the universe.

Why? Whatever is it within you that compels this? We desire things we lack-- it would be absurd to crave that which we already have, and therein lies a huge topic I wish our (relatively absentee) hosts would cover in their podcasts-- all this desiring that an omnipotent being seems to crave. What is it you folks lack? Is it the inability to control your lives? Is it a lack of love? Is it terror?

Theists seem to crave "lining themselves up with ultimate power" and god seems to crave endless worship and supplication from lesser beings.

Both sides of this equation sounds dysfunctional, empty, certainly riven with fear of loss, and utimately craven to me-- at it's core.

And I know it's going to be spun into "love, ah sweet love" but it sounds like the sweet song of fear to me.

[Dr Mundo]

Dr. Mundo
It seems to me that in order to have to choose between prayer and modern medicine you would have to be in a pretty unusual situation and it is the specific features of that situation that would cause you to choose one or the other so without knowing the features of that situation we cannot know what we would or should choose. You might say yes but without going into the details and all other things being equal what would you chose? But all things are never just equal in any meaningful way. Like Rian I would see the purpose of prayer as being to line ourselves up with the power behind the universe; that can include asking for things because it is in asking that we learn what we really want. T. S. Eliot talked of 'the purification of the motive in the ground of our beseeching' He was referring to a medieval writer, it may have been Mother Julian, who said of God that he is the ground of our beseeching. Anyway you get the idea - by making what we want known to God it gets changed and moves in line with his (prescriptive) will.

I guess you both have answered my question better than I thought at first. I know the hypothetical was not what would make sense to you. That was the point. IF given the choice between one or the other under the circumstances I set up for you I wanted you both to say that, "Yes Medicine is more effective than prayer and I would chose medicine." It may be unfair to you and you probably wouldn't see the point in answering such a question. It is however no different than, when I say for the sake of the discussion, that I also believe that God exists. It is not fair to me because I have no idea how it would work, what I would think, so and, and so forth. But I would grant you that, I don't care anymore that you guys wont do the same, so lets just all forget it. At least now I know neither you nor Rian think of Prayer as a way for God to magically help you in some way. Its just to make you feel better. For instance if you had cancer I don't think you would pray to god to cure your cancer, if I am understanding you both correctly. You would probably pray to make you feel at ease with the fact that you have cancer, and you just want to think of it in a different perspective. That doesn't mean you think God would intervene and provide any tangible/physical benefit though. To think otherwise would be silly. Beyond silly in my opinion.

[Moonwood the Hare]

Like Rian I would see the purpose of prayer as being to line ourselves up with the power behind the universe.

Why? Whatever is it within you that compels this? We desire things we lack-- it would be absurd to crave that which we already have, and therein lies a huge topic I wish our (relatively absentee) hosts would cover in their podcasts-- all this desiring that an omnipotent being seems to crave. What is it you folks lack? Is it the inability to control your lives? Is it a lack of love? Is it terror?

Theists seem to crave "lining themselves up with ultimate power" and god seems to crave endless worship and supplication from lesser beings.

Both sides of this equation sounds dysfunctional, empty, certainly riven with fear of loss, and utimately craven to me-- at it's core.

And I know it's going to be spun into "love, ah sweet love" but it sounds like the sweet song of fear to me.

Well, perhaps that says something about you.