OK, we're good there, then.Dr Mundo wrote:Yes that is right.Rian wrote:I think I do understand your question, Dr. M. You're asking which do I think will give the best/most valuable results - prayer or medicine - and furthermore, you seem to be defining "most valuable" as "most valuable to physical health". Is that right?
OK, then, it was a flawed example. But what about the concept? Do you think that there can be questions that can't be answered until they are valid questions?Dr Mundo wrote:2+2=red is really very different from what I am asking, in any case 2x+2x=4x not redx. so that would be an easy question to answer. the answer of does 2+2=red is, No it doesn't.Rian wrote:However, I think you missed my point, and step-wise, that needs to come before your question - we need to debate whether or not all questions are valid questions (i.e., do they make sense, or are they something along the lines of "does 2 plus 2 = red", which is a nonsensical question, IMO - do you agree?).
See, the problem that I have with your example is that it's a form of the false dilemma fallacy. Those aren't the only two valid options, nor are they contradictory, yet you're trying to force a decision between them. That's why we can't have a meaningful discussion on that question. We'll have to adjust a few things first.
Dr Mundo wrote:I don't see that and I don't agree. In the bible it seems pretty clear that if you ask for something in the name of Jesus you will have it.Rian wrote:You are asking about what the Bible says on prayer, so we're talking about assuming a Biblical worldview frame of reference here, and what you're asking is nonsensical within that worldview. Do you see that? Do you agree?
Now this is more clear than your example. We should probably take it from here now. I was reacting against your example because it was just something that would never happen and it was hitting issues that I don't think are possibilities. So shall we drop the example and just start here?
OK, yes, let's start here, being sure to hit the asking angle of things.Dr Mundo wrote:Oh god, as if things weren't hard enough now we have to go over our definition of prayerRian wrote:But see, this is illogical on yet another level - prayer isn't all about requests, by any means, and it makes no sense, if one is in prayer, to withhold prayer on anything that is on your mind. It just doesn't work, Dr. M. I'm trying to go along with the spirit of what you're asking, but what you're asking doesn't make sense.
I suppose I will leave this up to you. Would you define prayer, because what I meant was the whole asking Jesus/God things like you see every other Christian do when they say they are going to pray.
I think it's child abuse to not treat her medically, too, so we should really drop working with the example (which I feel is a false dilemma, anyway, so we'd need to come to an agreement about a rework of it before going further) and just talk about what is prayer, including the asking part.Dr Mundo wrote:Well I'm glad you answered the question, One more thing. Lets say it wasn't your body that was in need of treatment, and say it was your little girl. Do you have the same feelings about the situation now? Would you rather she go through adversity with health issues and just pray that Jesus do what was good for her soul or would you tailor to her physical needs and have medical treatment for her? For me Its really obvious what I would do, and I would think it Child abuse not to treat her medically, mainly because I wouldn't believe she had a soul and seeing her in physical pain would break my heart. ( I don't have any kids at the moment I'm just projecting how I would feel if I did).Rian wrote:But I'll give it yet another shot, although I feel that I'm laboring under 2 levels of question inaccuracy - I feel that I would choose prayer if I were strong enough to do so, but I'm not always strong enough to choose to do what I think is right (hence my current diet! ) Seriously, I just value the heart/soul more than the physical, and I've seen how many deep truths I've learned through adversity (although adversity isn't good in itself) and how many character flaws that have been healed through adversity.