Why Does There Have to Be a God?

[humanguy]

Seriously, why? What's lost without a God? What has God ever done for humanity, for this world?

It was us who figured out how to build houses and grow crops, write music and make porno films. A human being designed the Golden Gate Bridge, and that's not just building any old bridge.

Without God we'd still have that bridge. We'd still have the, hell we'd have everything: airplanes, the internet, Beethoven, Manhattan, Cajun food, Thelonious Monk, Muddy Waters, naked women, a new Honda Fit (good car), I mean I can't thing of anything that has anything, anything at all, to do with being a living thinking human being in this life on this little planet that in any way requires that there be an ultimate holy divine God thing behind it.

We'd still have love, happiness, sadness, tragedies, ingenuity, determination, achievement, failure, loyalty, creativity, curiosity, disease, great sex, a juicy steak, and most of all the fundamental will and desire to live, we'd have all that.

Looking at it at that basic level I see no compelling reason for there to be a supreme all-intelligent creator of this planet and the universe, not at all. All things that we know taken into account, I see humans as doing pretty damned good on this planet in this solar system in this galaxy in this universe.

I'll put it this way: it doesn't need any more salt. It's fine just like it is, as fine as it can be anyway. And being humans we continue to try to make things better, although lately it's pretty easy to write off the human race as being a bloody great load of self-important imbeciles.

Oh well. We're only human.

So. Given all this, why does there have to be a god?

[Emery]

I think humans will always need God, humanguy, because having God allows us to resolve our greatest fears and sorrows. With God we can overcome the unbearable sorrow of losing a child, for we will be united again. With God we can overcome death, since we will live again. With God we can overcome the fear that the unjust go unpunished, and the oppressed unavenged, and that our personal tragedies have no purpose. Perhaps it take a higher understanding to come to terms with these things without God, but humans aren't there yet, and I doubt we ever will be.

[Keep The Reason]

We lose utterly nothing but falsehood and distraction.

I disagree humanity will always need gods. I think we are in the process of outgrowing it as many many hundreds of millions live happily, productively, morally, and fulfilled lives without god already. God beliefs are evolving towards "none". You even have Christians who have carved away Hell and believe one can attain heaven without Christ. It's just a matter of time.

Of course-- those who are still entrenched may very well push the buttons that ensure we run out of time. I think this is very very possible, in fact, probable.

[humanguy]

I think humans will always need God, humanguy, because having God allows us to resolve our greatest fears and sorrows. With God we can overcome the unbearable sorrow of losing a child, for we will be united again. With God we can overcome death, since we will live again. With God we can overcome the fear that the unjust go unpunished, and the oppressed unavenged, and that our personal tragedies have no purpose. Perhaps it take a higher understanding to come to terms with these things without God, but humans aren't there yet, and I doubt we ever will be.

Really? I'm there. Where else could I be? What is IS. Life is what it is, and it isn't any other way. I'll tell you something else, and I don't mean to be strident or boastful, but it is remarkable what sorrows we humans beings can handle. All sorrows are bearable, I have personal experience with this, but more importantly and significant to this conversation is that we have ample documentation of human beings suffering unimaginable sorrows, unimaginable horrors, and still coming out with their humanity intact.

We're strong. Human beings are strong. Being human is great if you do the work, and if you're too lazy to do the work then there's always religion to tell you what to think and how to live.

It's a simplistic way of putting it, yes, but I stand behind the statement. Being alive is being alone, and the putting together of the pieces that ultimately make us who we are is the task we are given in this life and we have to do it alone. That's what I mean by doing the work. Doing the work is what makes one an individual human being.

[mitchellmckain]

I think humans will always need God, humanguy, because having God allows us to resolve our greatest fears and sorrows. With God we can overcome the unbearable sorrow of losing a child, for we will be united again. With God we can overcome death, since we will live again. With God we can overcome the fear that the unjust go unpunished, and the oppressed unavenged, and that our personal tragedies have no purpose. Perhaps it take a higher understanding to come to terms with these things without God, but humans aren't there yet, and I doubt we ever will be.

Really? I'm there. Where else could I be? What is IS. Life is what it is, and it isn't any other way. I'll tell you something else, and I don't mean to be strident or boastful, but it is remarkable what sorrows we humans beings can handle. All sorrows are bearable, I have personal experience with this, but more importantly and significant to this conversation is that we have ample documentation of human beings suffering unimaginable sorrows, unimaginable horrors, and still coming out with their humanity intact.

We're strong. Human beings are strong. Being human is great if you do the work, and if you're too lazy to do the work then there's always religion to tell you what to think and how to live.

It's a simplistic way of putting it, yes, but I stand behind the statement. Being alive is being alone, and the putting together of the pieces that ultimately make us who we are is the task we are given in this life and we have to do it alone. That's what I mean by doing the work. Doing the work is what makes one an individual human being.

The lesson here is that people are different -- different needs, different wants, different interests, different abilities. I cannot say that I need God in the sense that Emery talks about. The challenges in my life have not been so great that I can see, so I cannot even comment about my ability to endure unimaginable horrors that humanguy talks about, except to say that it does very much seem to me that any such ability is far from universal. My life has been great really. But that this doesn't mean that I don't want more and that is where God comes in for me -- I want to be more. From the earliest childhood, I have always wanted to know more. Material gain never interested me, so that I pursued my studies with no thought at all about a career. But I have slowly come to realize that knowledge is in many ways just another kind of wealth. Its kind of like learning all there is to know about some computer game. When the game is over and you move on to something else in life then none of that really means a damn thing any more.

Humanguy's comment about having religion tell you what to think and how to live is ridiculous. I could respond in kind by saying that it looks to me like that this is HIS made up dumb ass excuse for his own laziness on this matter -- doesn't have to think seriously about such things if he just dismisses them all in that way. BUT the fact is that we have to make choices about what things to pursue for there is too much to choose from, and thus to act like he SHOULD spend his time pursuing religious truth is just as ridiculous and very little different from his feeling that he needs such an excuse. People are NOT lazy because they make different choices and think in different ways than you or I. I see absolutely no reason why we have to invent some reason to see something wrong with others just because they choose to live and think differently than you do.

[Dr Mundo]

I think humans will always need God, humanguy, because having God allows us to resolve our greatest fears and sorrows. With God we can overcome the unbearable sorrow of losing a child, for we will be united again. With God we can overcome death, since we will live again. With God we can overcome the fear that the unjust go unpunished, and the oppressed unavenged, and that our personal tragedies have no purpose. Perhaps it take a higher understanding to come to terms with these things without God, but humans aren't there yet, and I doubt we ever will be.

Really? I'm there. Where else could I be? What is IS. Life is what it is, and it isn't any other way. I'll tell you something else, and I don't mean to be strident or boastful, but it is remarkable what sorrows we humans beings can handle. All sorrows are bearable, I have personal experience with this, but more importantly and significant to this conversation is that we have ample documentation of human beings suffering unimaginable sorrows, unimaginable horrors, and still coming out with their humanity intact.

We're strong. Human beings are strong. Being human is great if you do the work, and if you're too lazy to do the work then there's always religion to tell you what to think and how to live.

It's a simplistic way of putting it, yes, but I stand behind the statement. Being alive is being alone, and the putting together of the pieces that ultimately make us who we are is the task we are given in this life and we have to do it alone. That's what I mean by doing the work. Doing the work is what makes one an individual human being.

My favorite quote I have read here on these forums.

[Moonwood the Hare]

I don't want to claim any originality here but I'm not going to give you all my sources. It is suggested there are three phases in being human.

The first phase is the collective - where humans are part of a group and find their identity as a part of the group - for example look at what belonging to Israel means in the Old Testament. This is a kind of tribal identity but it persists until much later than the bronze age. The religion of a person in this phase will be institutional and this is the form of religion telling people what to think that humanguy is so hostile to. This correlates to childhood.

The second phase is the individual. Where the person has a sense of their identity as a distinct self. This seems to be what humanguy trasures and this can be found emerging from around the 12th Century. The danger is that the individual can become the isolate, 'I touch no one and no one touches me' as one of the C20s great popular poets said. The religion of a person in this phase will be critical or often skeptical. This correlates to adolescence.

The third phase is the transpersonal or communal. This is where knowing ourselves as individuals we find ourselves also in the group. The religion of those in this phase will tend to be mystical. This correlares to adulthood.

I will give an untangible banana to anyone who can tell me which aanalytical psychologist relates these phases to Father, Son and Spirit - clue: it's not Scott Peck

[Keep The Reason]

The lesson here is that people are different -- different needs, different wants, different interests, different abilities. I cannot say that I need God in the sense that Emery talks about. The challenges in my life have not been so great that I can see, so I cannot even comment about my ability to endure unimaginable horrors that humanguy talks about, except to say that it does very much seem to me that any such ability is far from universal. My life has been great really. But that this doesn't mean that I don't want more and that is where God comes in for me -- I want to be more.

And how did this bring you to "more"? More what exactly? You don't strike me as a particularly warm individual --here at least, so I'll grant you that you may be vastly different in real life than the face you show here. But what "more" has this belief achieved you?

From the earliest childhood, I have always wanted to know more. Material gain never interested me, so that I pursued my studies with no thought at all about a career. But I have slowly come to realize that knowledge is in many ways just another kind of wealth. Its kind of like learning all there is to know about some computer game. When the game is over and you move on to something else in life then none of that really means a damn thing any more.

Sounds to me like you're selfish and hard to please. What's wrong about savoring the enjoyment of the game, the memory of the experience? Here we get into the core (and instantly denied) hedonism of the Christian. It's never enough. Life, pleasure, meaning; if its not eternal, it's meaningless. Now we know what "more" means, don't we?

Christians often do the same thing with Jesus. The sermon on the mount is an elegant confession of the struggle of humanity in the face of injustice. But it's not good enough to stand at that for them. No, Jesus must also be magical, he must be born of a virgin, he must walk on water and raise the dead, he must have the power of a god... No, he must be a god before there is value in his words. And frankly, given the historical behavior of Christians, that's still not enough. Others must accept this as well-- see how mike responds?

Never satisfied. Never enough. The "now" is dismissed, in favor of the "then". whatever do any of you really think you've gained? Seems to me you've definitely lost.

[cleve]

Seriously, why? What's lost without a God? What has God ever done for humanity, for this world?

Humanguy,
Those are some pretty serious questions. I don't think many here can relate to such a level of seriousness. Wishing you the best in your search.

[Rian]

If God created the universe and upholds the universe by his power, then we need him in order to exist. That's obviously an "if", but it's also obviously true that we need God if the "if" part is true.

[humanguy]

Humanguy's comment about having religion tell you what to think and how to live is ridiculous.

Fair enough, Mitch. There are many things that lazy humans rely on to avoid having to work things out by themselves and on their own. For some it's right-wing talk radio, for others it's hip-hop "music," for some it's religion. For example, when I read on this forum a Christian saying that it says thus-and-so in scripture and therefore that's just how it is, I'm seeing a lazy human being. You can say that I'm wrong about that all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that this is a case of a person letting something else, in this case the Bible, do his thinking for him. Obeying the rules without question is much easier and, dare I say, safer than going it on your own. I'm not saying that these humans are bad, I'm saying that they're lazy.

[humanguy]

If God created the universe and upholds the universe by his power, then we need him in order to exist. That's obviously an "if", but it's also obviously true that we need God if the "if" part is true.

Well, that's what this thread is about. Why does there have to be an "if" part?

[Keep The Reason]

Well, that's what this thread is about. Why does there have to be an "if" part?

Well, we know whence it comes. While modern theists will deny this, it comes from pre-technological and superstitious peoples in the past who had not tools to decipher why things existed in the first place.

I would say those peoples were anything but lazy -- they worked damned hard trying to figure things out, but they were simply mistaken. Existence is not predicated on the things they claim it was predicated upon. This is not a negative reflection on them-- it's simply the consequence of a more limited ability to be able to decipher the truth, and they did the best they could do.

People today, however, who rest upon the propositions of a distant people who were handicapped in their tools and knowledge-- yes they are being incredibly lazy. Worse, they are also being incredibly irresponsible. I think we all have a duty to be the best, and most mature, human beings we can be. And that means we have to accept the reality of life on the terms that it offers us, not on terms of what we want it to be, or insist it must be. And only then can we be in a position to take from our experiences an authentic meaning. Now, theists will claim they do have authentic meaning but as you yourself have noted, there just doesn't seem to be any real need for "god" in any of this so I don't know what the concept winds up giving them. Ok, "Security"? "Comfort"? Perhaps, but most assuredly this doesn't mean they won't suffer from tragedy, or their lives are spared the strideful march towards the grave.

While I do not believe people will always need this god medicine, Emery does correctly point out that there are people who do seem to need it. But many people don't-- you, me, Emery himself -- none of us need this dynamic to have meaningful purpose in life (well, I don't know about you so much, but myself I know, and Emery has argued likewise; and there are other atheists who have attested to rich, fulfilled lives without god -- so if not you personally, then the "global you" that's out there not believing).

In fact, I would say that discarding theism deeply increased my sense of purpose and fulfillment in life.

[Moonwood the Hare]

Well, that's what this thread is about. Why does there have to be an "if" part?

Well, we know whence it comes. While modern theists will deny this, it comes from pre-technological and superstitious peoples in the past who had not tools to decipher why things existed in the first place.

Okay I'm game tell; us why things exist in the first place.

I would say those peoples were anything but lazy -- they worked damned hard trying to figure things out, but they were simply mistaken. Existence is not predicated on the things they claim it was predicated upon. This is not a negative reflection on them-- it's simply the consequence of a more limited ability to be able to decipher the truth, and they did the best they could do.

But how do you know they were fundamentally mistaken. I know you have this idea that ancient people were sort of trying to do science but couldn't and got religion by mistake but there really isn't any evidence to support that; it's speculation on a very flimsy basis. What if people were not even trying to do what you think they were trying to do. But I will hold fire until I get your answer to the question you have claimed to be able to answer: why do things exist in the first place?

People today, however, who rest upon the propositions of a distant people who were handicapped in their tools and knowledge-- yes they are being incredibly lazy. Worse, they are also being incredibly irresponsible. I think we all have a duty to be the best, and most mature, human beings we can be. And that means we have to accept the reality of life on the terms that it offers us, not on terms of what we want it to be, or insist it must be. And only then can we be in a position to take from our experiences an authentic meaning. Now, theists will claim they do have authentic meaning but as you yourself have noted, there just doesn't seem to be any real need for "god" in any of this so I don't know what the concept winds up giving them. Ok, "Security"? "Comfort"? Perhaps, but most assuredly this doesn't mean they won't suffer from tragedy, or their lives are spared the strideful march towards the grave.

Well because people lived a long time ago does not mean they were wrong about everything and a belief in God does not imply a refusal to accept new ideas. I mean what actually surprises me about the atheist on this forum is how little they know about modern thought. Anyway I'm glad you have finally admitted that you do not know what people get from the concept of God since you have told us enough times that you do know. There's nothing wrong with security and comfort but how about challenge? purpose? I mean you can get all these things without God but do people need to find something in God that no one could ever fund in any other way? And if they did find that could they ever communicate it?

While I do not believe people will always need this god medicine, Emery does correctly point out that there are people who do seem to need it. But many people don't-- you, me, Emery himself -- none of us need this dynamic to have meaningful purpose in life (well, I don't know about you so much, but myself I know, and Emery has argued likewise; and there are other atheists who have attested to rich, fulfilled lives without god -- so if not you personally, then the "global you" that's out there not believing).

Yes, there are people who just don't have any interest in religion but most of them do not spend their time arguing against it.

In fact, I would say that discarding theism deeply increased my sense of purpose and fulfillment in life.

You know that does not surprise me at all given the arguments you tend to use against theism - the psychological ones I mean not your abortive attempts to construct an empiricist epistemology.

[humanguy]

I mean what actually surprises me about the atheist on this forum is how little they know about modern thought.

If it makes any difference, I mean if it matters at all one way or the other, I know a fair amount about my own thought, and I try my best to express it as clearly as possible.

Where does it say that I or anyone else needs to know anything about modern thought? What role does modern thought play in your ideas, opinions and goals? For that matter, what do you mean by "modern thought?"