tonyenglish7 wrote:Yes all of these did it via their own decision, yet God raised Pharaoh up for that reason as it is reported in the bible. He knew what he and every other free will being would do given any particular situation. Remember, God still is an active player, it is not all just foreknowledge, he gets to play with the parts as well..
Well, I suppose if he's prepared to punish a whole species due to the disobedience of Adam & Eve, it shouldn't surprise me that he's prepared to punish an entire civilisation due to the stubbornness of one man. It certainly would explain why there isn't any more of his species and why he wound up alone and lonely enough to have created mankind to toy with. All I can say is that I'm really glad I've seen no evidence of his existence.
That said, the reason I (admittedly, flippantly) posted about this is because I just wanted to mention that, for me, it's hard to follow your reasoning when you say, "He is not powerful enough to do something logically incoherent, like make a free creature do something." when time and again, we read about him trying to do exactly that.
tonyenglish7 wrote:You misunderstand, it is not about locking us into our choices, we are still just as free as we are free. Just because God knew and activated the universe doesn't mean you are not free. The freedom you have is real no matter what God knew prior. I am not convinced that any other universe would contain the same persons. In any other universe, no matter how slightly different, the alternative universe seems to me to preclude any identical persons, but who knows?
Where do you get the notion of multiples universes? Obviously not from The Bible because it doesn't mention them. I ask, because the only time I've heard of them is when listening to the likes of Michio Kaku explaining the many-world interpretation of quantum physics. In explaining how things at the quantum level cannot be predicted absolutely but rather there being a range of possible observations, each with its own probability, multiple universes are born (one for each possible eventuality). So, when you talk about your god actuating the universe with the most good in it (or where the least amount of evil happens), I'm picturing other universes springing up to account for the other probabilistic choices each of us could make. Obviously in this scenario, a universe where I "choose" to remain a devout Christian would have to play out.
As such, I don't believe I misunderstand - rather I think you've misunderstood me. Sure, in this universe I'm aware I make the choices that I do - I'm not disagreeing with you here (at least not for the purposes of this discussion). The point is though, that in alternate universes I'd still make the choices - yet I'd choose differently (to account for the different probability playouts I just mentioned) and as such, in at least one of them, I'd pretty much have to have chosen to remain a Christian. So, in at least one of the possible universes I'd be "saved". The thing is though, by your god picking this universe, he's locked me out of that possibility because, according to you, he's going to be judging me based on what happens in this universe because it's the one he's actuated (science, on the other hand, doesn't give a shit, because no universe in this hypothesis is any more or less important than any other universe and all exist).