Can a loving God hate?

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Can a loving God hate?

Postby cleve » Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:56 pm

Well, if a loving God hates, what or whom does he hate? Why?
Do unknown and unpopular bible doctrines make you angry?
Why did God love the the jewish people?
Why is God jealous?
If you want to consider these questions and answers from a jewish old & new testament perspective, then Larry Wessels (Director of Christian Answers) might interest you.
http://www.youtube.com/user/CAnswersTV? ... eature=pyv
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Re: Can a loving God hate?

Postby Keep The Reason » Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:44 pm

cleve wrote:Well, if a loving God hates, what or whom does he hate? Why?


An omni-loving god couldn't but a "loving" one could.

Do unknown and unpopular bible doctrines make you angry?


Unpopular ones might -- but if it's unknown, then how can I comment on that which I do not know?

Why did God love the the jewish people?


If we're going on the hypothesis that the bible is in some way the demonstration of this claim, it's because the "Jewish people" wrote the book that says he considers them special.

Why is God jealous?


Because humans are jealous and whern they contrived him, they made him as human, only "moreso".
To cut some folks off at the pass, I don't advocate for violence, oppression, genocide, war, hatred or intolerance. Instead, I advocate for education, organization, activism, and the democratic process. ~~ KtR
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Re: Can a loving God hate?

Postby humanguy » Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:59 pm

Cleve, what do you think God is?
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Re: Can a loving God hate?

Postby cleve » Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:45 pm

humanguy wrote:Cleve, what do you think God is?

Humanguy,
According to the Bible, God the Father is a spirit, and I agree with what the Bible says. Any reason for your asking?
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Re: Can a loving God hate?

Postby humanguy » Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:02 pm

cleve wrote:
humanguy wrote:Cleve, what do you think God is?

Humanguy,
According to the Bible, God the Father is a spirit, and I agree with what the Bible says. Any reason for your asking?


Curiosity.

Why do you agree with what the Bible says?
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Re: Can a loving God hate?

Postby mitchellmckain » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:27 am

cleve wrote:Well, if a loving God hates, what or whom does he hate? Why?
Do unknown and unpopular bible doctrines make you angry?
Why did God love the the jewish people?
Why is God jealous?
If you want to consider these questions and answers from a jewish old & new testament perspective,
then Larry Wessels (Director of Christian Answers) might interest you.

I shall listen to what he has to say and then I will consider these questions from a Biblical perspective myself.

cleve wrote:then Larry Wessels (Director of Christian Answers) might interest you.
http://www.youtube.com/user/CAnswersTV? ... eature=pyv

The atheists are just going to love this series entitled unpopular doctrines, which points out all these verses to make their case that Xtianity is an immoral hate inspiring disease that can make good people do bad things.

My response is to say that there are many gods that I most certainly do hate. There are/were roman emperors and many other tin gods and tyrants like mafia bosses that took upon themselves god-like perogative to hold the power of life and death over everyone in their power. Perhaps some of these even thought that the Bible was talking about them or they made their own little bible. And why do I hate these gods? On what basis should I decide to hate any of these gods rather than obey them? Is it power? Should I simply obey whichever seems the strongest to me? Certainly not. What else but the character they reveal through their behavior, that is the only basis for possible judgement. All the gods that I hate have a very similar modus operandi. They rule by promises and threats encouraging everyone to be sniveling obsequious worms willing to do any evil if it pleases their master. This is the classic archetypical image of "the god of this world", the devil who would have you sell your soul for what you desire or rule over you by fear.

So this Larry Wessel seems to be able see this kind of god in the God of the Bible - a being ruled by a jealous demand for us to obey and worship no matter what despicable thing He demands of us out fear for threats that he will squish us like grapes. I most certainly do hate Larry Wessel's god, because hatred is all that such a contemptable character and behavior is worthy of, and I don't want the acceptance and love of such a demon. Let this devil bring the wrath and brimstone on because every bit of it means that I refuse with all my heart, mind and soul to be like that myself or to sell out and compromise with that behavior. So I don't care about the power of such a creature to make good on his threats and promises, because what I care about is doing what is right and good.

cleve wrote:Well, if a loving God hates, what or whom does he hate? Why?

Well hate is the other side of the coin from love and it is usually love that inspires the hate. The hatred of evil men is usually inspired by a love of self. But I believe in a God that has given Himself in love for us, and what he hates are that which hurts those whom he loves. Yes quite often it is some of these who hurt others, and so God does hate what such people have made themselves into that they would do such things. I am parent and I love my children but there are things about them that I do not love. I particularly do love the hateful things they say and do to each other, and while I love the good aspects of what they have made of themselves I also hate the bit of calousness I see in my eldest, the mean and hateful streak in my second eldest and control freak aspect of my youngest.

cleve wrote:Do unknown and unpopular bible doctrines make you angry?

Not at all. But the use of these rather popular bible verses in order to make God into their own little tool of power and manipulation certainly does make me angry, and it indeed made God angry in the Old Testament and made Jesus and Paul angry in the New Testament.

cleve wrote:Why did God love the the jewish people?

Because he chose to. He chose to enter into a special relationship with them. But I completely refute Wessel's blatant non-sequiteur that God chose to love the Jewish people means that He chose not to love anyone else. Parent's do not have to treat all their children absoutely same because they are not all the same and thus they most certainly can have special relationships to some according to the special character, talents and interests that they have. A father might choose one child with the right talents and interest to share all he has learned in his own career or business, and it is when he insists on such a relationship with his children regardless of their talents and interests that it can be abusive.

cleve wrote:Why is God jealous?

It depends on what you mean by the word for there are many long held misconceptions which thought that there could be no love without jealousy. Now we understand that there are types of behavior we call jealousy that typically stem from insecurity or excessive posessiveness. In the not to distant past women and children were considered property and thus such posessive feelings would have been considered natural. But now such feelings are understood to be anything but heathy and in fact destructive of love rather than compatable with it. Healthy love certainly involves commitment whether it is the mutual commitment we have with a spouse to share our lives or the one sided commitment to give to our children what they need to grow healthy and strong. So when are not true to those commitments then we break faith with our promises.

So if we are talking about feelings that stem from insecurity or an unhealthy posessiveness then I certainly do not think that this applies to God. But it is foolish to expect modern distinctions from a text written 2000 years or more ago. So the question is whether we can separate out something that could reasonable apply to a God that inspires our worship? Well the relationship we have with God is hardly the one of mutual commitment with a spouse but rather the one sided commitment of a parent to a child, right? So what reasonable expectations does a parent have? Does the parent have any rights? Well there is one that I do think is very clear and that is when you have made the commitment to be there and to attend to the child's needs then you expect to be the one with parental authority and not have other people who don't really know your child stick their noses in to say what your child "really" needs. So if people are inventing other gods for the purpose claiming their own authority over your children in order to get them to do things that are not in your children's best interest then you are naturally going to be rather outraged don't you think? That is a healthy and perfectly justifiable outrage, for which I think the people of ancient times had no other word but "jealousy".
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Re: Can a loving God hate?

Postby cleve » Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:28 am

Mitch,
Thanks very much for your response. It gives me opportunity to try to clear up some of the misunderstandings that seem to have cropped up in various discussion topics. I can understand how you feel about letting one's attitudes be exposed, making one seem more vulnerable to attack, especially when it comes to the atheists' perspectives. But they have already experienced this sort of thing, if for no other reason than because they seem to be oriented in this direction. So, if there is already a wound, then, like a physician, we have to try to squeeze out the pus.
Where a lot of the misunderstanding seems to come is when we do not understand God as having a multitude of purposes and agendas - that He loves and hates according to these purposes - that, through Him, help us to realize that there is a time and purpose for everything under the sun. An illustration of this is in Romans ch.9, with what God says about Jacob and Esau - that He loved Jacob and hated Esau according to His elective purpose.
In the talk by Larry Wessels, his focus a specific time period in the Bible, with emphasis on God's purposes and relationships during the Old Testament-New Testament Jewish dispensation, and specifically regarding His relationship to the Jews. (God's attempt to complete the Jewish dispensation got thwarted because of the responses of the Jewish leaders during Christ's lifetime.) The writings of the Apostle Paul, on the other hand, focus on the grace dispensation under the gentiles, where God's purposes are different and He didn't demonstrate His purposes with miraculous power as He had done in previous dispensations with His chosen people, the Jews.
So I hope this helps to show how/why God's purposes of love, hate and grace toward His people vary through different periods of time.
As for God's being jealous [ardently loving; excited by the prosperity of others], I see this passion as being protective [jealous; standing up/being zealous for any one's cause] (how do you think this make God demonic or tyrannical?) and preservative toward what is already perfect. For instance, if you bought your oldest child a brand new car, you wouldn't want him to be careless in taking care of it and letting it rust or let the motor freeze up in it. Instead, you would want opt to instruct him in the proper use, care and maintenance of it, and especially in driving it correctly without hurting it or others. I do not see God as being a bully who demands that we give proper respect [worship] to Him and and take training from Him for the wrong reasons.
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Re: Can a loving God hate?

Postby cleve » Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:10 am

humanguy wrote:Cleve, what do you think God is?

cleve wrote:According to the Bible, God the Father is a spirit, and I agree with what the Bible says. Any reason for your asking?

humanguy wrote:
Curiosity.

Why do you agree with what the Bible says?

Because, like a car motor, the time-related and fuctional harmony and design of the Bible just fascinates me and causes my curiosity to be aroused into further enjoyment of the extensive, all-encompassing and flexible, range of options for constructive usage/purpose. Since you enjoy playing the drums, you can probably relate to this because of the meaningfulness of your creativity.
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Re: Can a loving God hate?

Postby humanguy » Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:06 pm

cleve wrote:
humanguy wrote:Cleve, what do you think God is?

cleve wrote:According to the Bible, God the Father is a spirit, and I agree with what the Bible says. Any reason for your asking?

humanguy wrote:
Curiosity.

Why do you agree with what the Bible says?

Because, like a car motor, the time-related and fuctional harmony and design of the Bible just fascinates me and causes my curiosity to be aroused into further enjoyment of the extensive, all-encompassing and flexible, range of options for constructive usage/purpose. Since you enjoy playing the drums, you can probably relate to this because of the meaningfulness of your creativity.


There is no meaningfulness in creativity. I've found life to be much more enthralling once I chose to stop looking for meaning in anything.

What works for me won't work for others, though, and we're all in this together, lest we forget and whether we like it or not.
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Re: Can a loving God hate?

Postby cleve » Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:25 pm

humanguy wrote:
Curiosity.

Why do you agree with what the Bible says?

cleve wrote:Because, like a car motor, the time-related and fuctional harmony and design of the Bible just fascinates me and causes my curiosity to be aroused into further enjoyment of the extensive, all-encompassing and flexible, range of options for constructive usage/purpose. Since you enjoy playing the drums, you can probably relate to this because of the meaningfulness of your creativity.

humanguy wrote:There is no meaningfulness in creativity. I've found life to be much more enthralling once I chose to stop looking for meaning in anything.

Humanguy,
I agree, the work of doing for "it" and looking for "it" wrecks creativity.
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Re: Can a loving God hate?

Postby mitchellmckain » Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:24 pm

cleve wrote:Mitch,
Where a lot of the misunderstanding seems to come is when we do not understand God as having a multitude of purposes and agendas - that He loves and hates according to these purposes - that, through Him, help us to realize that there is a time and purpose for everything under the sun.

Well yes. And when someone has to act according to the harsh dictates of necessity rather than simple minded pie in the sky idealism then how are we supposed to be able see their true character? It can be difficult, there is no doubt about it. Often it can be a single act that reveals the truth, either to clear up the misperceptions or to reveal the lies.


cleve wrote:An illustration of this is in Romans ch.9, with what God says about Jacob and Esau - that He loved Jacob and hated Esau according to His elective purpose.
In the talk by Larry Wessels, his focus a specific time period in the Bible, with emphasis on God's purposes and relationships during the Old Testament-New Testament Jewish dispensation, and specifically regarding His relationship to the Jews. (God's attempt to complete the Jewish dispensation got thwarted because of the responses of the Jewish leaders during Christ's lifetime.) The writings of the Apostle Paul, on the other hand, focus on the grace dispensation under the gentiles, where God's purposes are different and He didn't demonstrate His purposes with miraculous power as He had done in previous dispensations with His chosen people, the Jews.

So I hope this helps to show how/why God's purposes of love, hate and grace toward His people vary through different periods of time.

Yes Ido think that is exactly what Romans chapter 9 is about - God's elective purpose because Paul explaining the whole relationship between Jew and Gentile is the context of that discussion. But what Larry Wessel and the Calvinists misunderstand is that this is NOT about God arbitrarily deciding that some will be saved and others damned but that when God seeks our redemption through the manipulation the lives of people who have discarded their free will to the habits of sin, then indeed He must decide whose example will teach us the fruits of sin (the so called "vessels of wrath") and whose example example will teach us His love (the "vessels of mercy"). If it is all about God simply deciding who are saved and who are damned as Wessel and the Calvinists say, then what need is there to teach anyone anything? In other world, God election is NOT about salvation but about tides of fortune in landscape of His providence. And that it was only to write His message to us in the Bible, not to alter the laws of nature.

cleve wrote:As for God's being jealous [ardently loving; excited by the prosperity of others], I see this passion as being protective [jealous; standing up/being zealous for any one's cause] (how do you think this make God demonic or tyrannical?) and preservative toward what is already perfect. For instance, if you bought your oldest child a brand new car, you wouldn't want him to be careless in taking care of it and letting it rust or let the motor freeze up in it. Instead, you would want opt to instruct him in the proper use, care and maintenance of it, and especially in driving it correctly without hurting it or others. I do not see God as being a bully who demands that we give proper respect [worship] to Him and and take training from Him for the wrong reasons.

I am confused by your response here because it is like you only read halfway through my post. I explained that in modern times we can discern and separate various things embraced under the umbrella of "jealousy" and that only some of them are unhealthy and unworthy of admiration. You seem to be talking about those which I have said ARE applicable to the God that I believe in.

But that is not what I hear Wessel saying at all. It seems quite clear that he is saying something quite different, that since we all hate Wessel's god by nature, then his god is perfectly just in simply choosing some to love and hating all the rest for no reason but his own whimsical pleasure. For Wessel's god is all about demanding that we love him just as Wessel says he is with all the hate and contemptable self-centered behavior that Wessel ascribes to him, and that Wessel's god will simply crush those that refuse that demand as he pleases, apparently thinking just like a mafia boss that the survivors will fawn all over him like sniveling worms because they were not the ones he decided to step on. The fact is that Wessel's god is the same big bad that we heard about from Tony and no I don't want to have anything to do with this ego maniacal mafia boss, I cannot and will not be grateful for such monstrous behavior and I must reject his presence as a hell from which to fervently pray for redemption from.

It seems quite clear to me that because I do not believe in the god that Wessel paints in his interpretation of the Bible, Wessel will say that I am just making up a false god and worshiping this false god because I hate the real god - Wessel's god. Thus Wessel says that his god will squish me like a grape and I am saying, that is fine me, because the worst fate that I can imagine, is to be welcomed into the arms of such a contemptable demon as Wessel's god.
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Re: Can a loving God hate?

Postby cleve » Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:32 pm

cleve wrote:Mitch,
Where a lot of the misunderstanding seems to come is when we do not understand God as having a multitude of purposes and agendas - that He loves and hates according to these purposes - that, through Him, help us to realize that there is a time and purpose for everything under the sun.

mitchellmckain wrote:
Well yes. And when someone has to act according to the harsh dictates of necessity rather than simple minded pie in the sky idealism then how are we supposed to be able see their true character?

That's not up to our choosing - our lives are in His hands. And here's one of my favorite verses to back it up:
Romans 11:36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things; to Whom be glory for ever. Amen.
mitchellmckain wrote:
It can be difficult, there is no doubt about it. Often it can be a single act that reveals the truth, either to clear up the misperceptions or to reveal the lies.

Who ever said that life was supposed to be easy? Surely it doesn't say that in the Bible. And since God is running the whole show, that's why the Bible says we can't come to Him unless He first draws us. We are not even going to see [understand mentally or spiritually] the kingdom of God until our spirits are reborn (child-like in nature).
mitchellmckain wrote:
I am confused by your response here because it is like you only read halfway through my post. I explained that in modern times we can discern and separate various things embraced under the umbrella of "jealousy" and that only some of them are unhealthy and unworthy of admiration. You seem to be talking about those which I have said ARE applicable to the God that I believe in.

Apologies for not picking up on the distinctions that you were emphasizing relating to "jealousy". Glad we're in agreement.
mitchellmckain wrote:
But that is not what I hear Wessel saying at all. It seems quite clear that he is saying something quite different, that since we all hate Wessel's god by nature, then his god is perfectly just in simply choosing some to love and hating all the rest for no reason but his own whimsical pleasure. For Wessel's god is all about demanding that we love him just as Wessel says he is with all the hate and contemptable self-centered behavior that Wessel ascribes to him, and that Wessel's god will simply crush those that refuse that demand as he pleases, apparently thinking just like a mafia boss that the survivors will fawn all over him like sniveling worms because they were not the ones he decided to step on. The fact is that Wessel's god is the same big bad that we heard about from Tony and no I don't want to have anything to do with this ego maniacal mafia boss, I cannot and will not be grateful for such monstrous behavior and I must reject his presence as a hell from which to fervently pray for redemption from.
It seems quite clear to me that because I do not believe in the god that Wessel paints in his interpretation of the Bible, Wessel will say that I am just making up a false god and worshiping this false god because I hate the real god - Wessel's god. Thus Wessel says that his god will squish me like a grape and I am saying, that is fine me, because the worst fate that I can imagine, is to be welcomed into the arms of such a contemptable demon as Wessel's god.

The problem with what Mr.Wessel shares with us is that the information is not directed toward us. If we take it personally, we get the wrong picture of how God executes His mercy toward us, thus rendering an effect of "incompletness" of God's grace. Apostle Paul's God manifests a picture of grace, under God's administration, through Paul, unto us Gentiles. Mr. Wessel gives us a different historical experiece with God and His chosen nation, Israel, which now is nearly 2000 years old. That is why we need to let the Bible rightly divide itself.
Your comments about the "incompleteness" of Mr. Wessel's communication convey to me that it might have brought out a challenge - especially in the area of God's impact on/involvement in various historical and/or biblical situations. When a person disciplines another (usually in a parent-to-child pattern), what possible thoughts might go through the mind of the "parent" who is executing the discipline? Are the motives for the good of the younger person(s), or is the situation just an opportunity for the "parent" to let off steam? Do you think God could use a situation(s) to help stretch a person's love and attitude(s) toward Him and/or them? When we have incomplete knowledge/understanding of a specific situation, it can cause us to respond strangely towards others because the picture we have is incomplete. Thus we end up disciplining others in an arena of incompleteness.
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