Whaddaya mean I have to love you, God?!

[Rian]

Humanguy said this in the Resurrection thread (in the podcast section) when the "two great commandments" came up (love God; love your neighbor as yourself) :

I hope that our theist pals are getting a sense of the bewilderment that I would say most atheists experience when they see where the Christian god commands us to love him.

I've always thought it was pretty strange, and can totally understand what humanguy is saying. However, I also thought that as with many strange things, perhaps it's just complex, and that if you think about it, you might get some interesting concepts. Of course, the atheists might cry "justification!" (in the non-biblical sense ) and they could be right. But here's the thing - if I hear about my husband doing something strange, then because of my relationship with him and knowledge of him, I decide that it's probably just complex, and will make sense if I find out more. It's the same thing with God; because of my relationship with him and my knowledge of him, when I find something strange in the Bible, I can trust that it's probably just something complex. So I'd like to pass on the "justification!" option (or if the atheists really want to say it, then they can say it and then leave because they will have nothing left to say ) (or they can say it once if they really feel they have to say it, and then try to assume that it's NOT justification and join in in the discussion).

SO - why would God command us to love him?

[Kestrel]

This commandment does not apply to the unbeliever.
The commandment is in reply to the question of the believers in the Law.

It is an injunction to the legalistic and an example to the spiritual.

The non believer is under no compunction nor expectation to acknowledge it, for the simple fact that a non believer does not believe.

[mitchellmckain]

SO - why would God command us to love him?

These 2000 years or more old writings in the Bible are written in an historical context and it was the message that people needed to hear at the time. In this case, the point was to help us understand what a relationship with God is really all about. The historical context was that people brought offerings to their idols or "gods" to protect themselves against the chances of nature. So the question was how to make the Hebrews seek a different kind of relationship with the God they believed in. It is apparent to me that what was written did in fact have the desired effect and the Hebrews did indeed seek a very different kind of relationship with the God that they believed in. God commands us to do what is in our best interest to do, and seeking a relationship with God where we value what He values is very much in our best interest. But the plain fact of the matter is that Christians do not love God because it is commanded. Obviously love just does not work that way. We love God because He inspires such love.

[humanguy]

This commandment does not apply to the unbeliever.
The commandment is in reply to the question of the believers in the Law.

Interesting. So it's not enough to believe, then. You have to also love what you believe in.

[Moonwood the Hare]

This commandment does not apply to the unbeliever.
The commandment is in reply to the question of the believers in the Law.

Interesting. So it's not enough to believe, then. You have to also love what you believe in.

'You believe in one, God. You do well, the devils also believe, and tremble' and then James, being of a practical turn of mind, says so go on and do something about it, suggesting that love of God is to be expressed through love of other people. Jesus seems to do the same thing when he says of the command to love God which he sees as the greatest commandment that the second is like unto it you shall love your neighbour as yourself. By like unto it does he mean exactly the same as? Does he mean loving your neighbour is just the same thing as loving God or does he mean they are strongly associated? I suppose the latter since the command to love God keeps the command to love neighbour in check, stopping it from becoming mere indulgence of the other; still there are other ways of keeping that in check that James and Jesus do not take into account.

[humanguy]

This commandment does not apply to the unbeliever.
The commandment is in reply to the question of the believers in the Law.

Interesting. So it's not enough to believe, then. You have to also love what you believe in.

'You believe in one, God. You do well, the devils also believe, and tremble' and then James, being of a practical turn of mind, says so go on and do something about it, suggesting that love of God is to be expressed through love of other people. Jesus seems to do the same thing when he says of the command to love God which he sees as the greatest commandment that the second is like unto it you shall love your neighbour as yourself. By like unto it does he mean exactly the same as? Does he mean loving your neighbour is just the same thing as loving God or does he mean they are strongly associated? I suppose the latter since the command to love God keeps the command to love neighbour in check, stopping it from becoming mere indulgence of the other; still there are other ways of keeping that in check that James and Jesus do not take into account.

I'm sorry, Moon, but I can't make out what you're saying here.

[Moonwood the Hare]

'You believe in one, God. You do well, the devils also believe, and tremble' and then James, being of a practical turn of mind, says so go on and do something about it, suggesting that love of God is to be expressed through love of other people. Jesus seems to do the same thing when he says of the command to love God which he sees as the greatest commandment that the second is like unto it you shall love your neighbour as yourself. By like unto it does he mean exactly the same as? Does he mean loving your neighbour is just the same thing as loving God or does he mean they are strongly associated? I suppose the latter since the command to love God keeps the command to love neighbour in check, stopping it from becoming mere indulgence of the other; still there are other ways of keeping that in check that James and Jesus do not take into account.

I'm sorry, Moon, but I can't make out what you're saying here.

Well James in his letter says just believing isn't enough. After all demons believe there is a God, and that makes them brick it! Then he says you can't just believe you have to help widows and orphans and so show your love. And the only way to show you love God is to help people. Jesus says the command to love God and love your neighbour belong together. But if you just said love your neighbour with no kind of context that could mean give him whatever he wants. So loving God and keeping his commandments sets a framework for loving your neighbour. I then didn't want to imply that's the only framework for that and all atheists just interpret love as indulgence. The atheist Shelley said for example there is no sterner moralist than pleasure. Does that clarify things or repeat the obscurity?

[humanguy]

'You believe in one, God. You do well, the devils also believe, and tremble' and then James, being of a practical turn of mind, says so go on and do something about it, suggesting that love of God is to be expressed through love of other people. Jesus seems to do the same thing when he says of the command to love God which he sees as the greatest commandment that the second is like unto it you shall love your neighbour as yourself. By like unto it does he mean exactly the same as? Does he mean loving your neighbour is just the same thing as loving God or does he mean they are strongly associated? I suppose the latter since the command to love God keeps the command to love neighbour in check, stopping it from becoming mere indulgence of the other; still there are other ways of keeping that in check that James and Jesus do not take into account.

I'm sorry, Moon, but I can't make out what you're saying here.

Well James in his letter says just believing isn't enough. After all demons believe there is a God, and that makes them brick it! Then he says you can't just believe you have to help widows and orphans and so show your love. And the only way to show you love God is to help people. Jesus says the command to love God and love your neighbour belong together. But if you just said love your neighbour with no kind of context that could mean give him whatever he wants. So loving God and keeping his commandments sets a framework for loving your neighbour. I then didn't want to imply that's the only framework for that and all atheists just interpret love as indulgence. The atheist Shelley said for example there is no sterner moralist than pleasure. Does that clarify things or repeat the obscurity?

No, that's fine, thanks.

[mikedsjr]

Moonwood, are you saying a person can't go to heaven without loving their neighbor? I just need clarity before i make a statement that appears completely opposite of what you are saying.

[mikedsjr]

humanguy, I'm still not sure I follow your original post. Maybe its my slowness *edit*

Based on what i see in this thread here let me say something: Yes, there is actions. But salvation has no actions involved. The loving your neighbor and loving God for a true Christian comes from a comprehension of their sins. The 10 commandments are divided between laws towards God and man/neighbor. The law that demonstrate love for God in the 10 commandments are 1. you shall have no other God before Him, 2. You shall not have any idols. You shall not use God's name in vein. These are some of the laws against God. The laws against man in the 10 are 1. honor your father and mother, 2. do not kill, 3. do not commit murder, 4. do not steal, 5. do not lie, 6. do not covet your neighbors stuff. The one i left out is honor the Sabbath. For a Christian, Jesus is our Sabbath rest.

The law is summed up in the two commands Jesus gave, which are found in Deut. [quick gospel lesson] When a person realizes they are a sinner before God and worthy of the judgment God has stated in Scripture that man deserves for disobeying his command, which is hell, and repent of their sins and receive Christ as Lord [/quick gospel lesson] then they will be compelled to honor the 10 commandments, not of of duty to obey (because they are now free from this law due to the work of Christ) but will obey these out of love for God. But their salvation doesn't mean they are perfect. But their obedience to loving God and loving neighbor is done from a heart of gratefulness and truth of what they used to be.

[humanguy]

humanguy, I'm still not sure I follow your original post. Maybe its my slowness *edit*

Rings true to me, Mike.

[Kestrel]

This commandment does not apply to the unbeliever.
The commandment is in reply to the question of the believers in the Law.

Interesting. So it's not enough to believe, then. You have to also love what you believe in.

As the remainder of my post which you omitted in your quote says;

...It is an injunction to the legalistic and an example to the spiritual.

If a believer is of the Hebraic law, then yes. It is a legal directive to love.
If a believer through Christ, then it is an example of what the believer should strive for, if not feeling by default.
As mitchellmckain well puts it;

We love God because He inspires such love.

[humanguy]

Interesting. So it's not enough to believe, then. You have to also love what you believe in.

As the remainder of my post which you omitted in your quote says:...It is an injunction to the legalistic and an example to the spiritual.

No offense, but I left that out because it makes no sense to me. I have no idea what the hell you're trying to say there.

If a believer is of the Hebraic law, then yes. It is a legal directive to love.
If a believer through Christ, then it is an example of what the believer should strive for, if not feeling by default.

And none of that makes any sense, either, sorry.

[Kestrel]

Interesting. So it's not enough to believe, then. You have to also love what you believe in.

As the remainder of my post which you omitted in your quote says:...It is an injunction to the legalistic and an example to the spiritual.

No offense, but I left that out because it makes no sense to me. I have no idea what the hell you're trying to say there.

If a believer is of the Hebraic law, then yes. It is a legal directive to love.
If a believer through Christ, then it is an example of what the believer should strive for, if not feeling by default.

And none of that makes any sense, either, sorry.

Understandable.
How 'bout this part?;

The non believer is under no compunction nor expectation to acknowledge it, for the simple fact that a non believer does not believe.

[mitchellmckain]

As the remainder of my post which you omitted in your quote says:...It is an injunction to the legalistic and an example to the spiritual.
...
If a believer is of the Hebraic law, then yes. It is a legal directive to love.
If a believer through Christ, then it is an example of what the believer should strive for, if not feeling by default.

No offense, but I left that out because it makes no sense to me. I have no idea what the hell you're trying to say there.

I understand this just fine so let's see if I can spell it out.

For those that have a legalistic mindset and are looking for the formula by which to be on the right terms with the creator of the universe, it is given as a commandment to "love God" because those are the terms in which they understand things. It is a piss poor way of understanding God but perhaps it is the best that they can do. Jesus tells a parable which demonstrates this in Matthew chapter 19:16-26. A man comes to Jesus asking, "what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?" It really is the completely wrong question but Jesus does his best to answer him the terms he demands it. The truth is that there is no enough -- there is no barganing your way into eternal life. So by insisting on that kind of answer Jesus eventually asks too much and the man goes away sad. The verses at the end of this are the key to the whole thing. "The disciples are amazed and ask, 'who then can be saved?' But Jesus looked at them and said, 'With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.'" So the answer is that eternal life does not come from something you can do but is something that God can do.

For those who seek God by faith, this is not a command but something that points the way. As Paul says in Romans chapter 10, those who seek the righteousness based on faith simply don't ask for what they can do to save themselves (get themselves to heaven) and never imagine that there is any "enough" but instead keep on developing a life giving relationship with God so that they can put themselves in His hands. A real relationship is never a matter of accomplishment or having it made but something you have to constantly develop and invest yourself in for the relationship to even exist.