mitchellmckain wrote:Treatment? What treatment? Words and opinions are all that can be found here. But I most certainly do not accept claims that opinions cannot be intolerant. Opinions that people are inferior (whether in regards to rationality, morality, or sanity) simply because they are different are heavy with intolerance.
Let me correct you right there. I do not suggest that anyone's opinion is inferior to mine just because they are different and I don't get that impression from Yuri either. So you can simply erase that criticism right now. But I have lots of opinions about people that they wouldn't necessarily appreciate, some they would even find offensive and revolting, not that I share them. Those are my innermost thoughts and impressions based on interactions with those people. I don't claim them all to be completely accurate because I'm intelligent enough to know that a brief encounter with someone doesn't provide all the information you need to form a good opinion. But the thing is, you can't stop yourself from forming opinions. You begin to do this the moment you meet someone whether you like it or not. And that opinion may change over time as you get to know a person more. So I reject your "argument" that opinions are "intolerant". They are merely what they are, your internal version of what another person is all about. So they cannot be "intolerant" unless I act on them in some way.
So consider this, Mitch. If you say something that I disagree with (and you often do) and I respond with a totally contradictory argument, you can choose to mock my idea (which you often do) or you can choose to explain yourself and what is behind your ideas (to be fair you do this as well). Which one do you think stands a better chance of influencing my opinion of your ideas? I've been trying to get this point across to you for years now it seems and you are doggedly resistant to it.
Besides your argument is hypocritical and amounts to no more than saying that you are right to insult us because you don't agree with us, but we cannot return those insults because the fact that we disagree with you doesn't give us the same right. Ridiculous!
Yes, that would be ridiculous, but that isn't my position. First of all, I am not insulting you or mocking your opinion. I've stated why I agree with Yuri and (pat, pat) I think I did a pretty good job of it. So prove me wrong if you disagree, or just insult me for it. The path you choose says something about you that, of course, informs my opinion about you. (hint, hint)
Yuri's claim is no less demonstrably wrong than Rian's and Rian has just as much right to express her opinion as Yuri does.
WRONG! There is ample evidence to support Yuri's claims, I stated them and so did KTR. You have not countered them with an intelligent argument. You have only supported Rian's decision to mock Yuri and added your own insults. That's not a discussion of the topic. And yes, Rian has every right to express her opinion.
Yuri, with his claims that theists are brain damaged and incapable of understanding the difference between belief and knowledge, most certainly IS intolerant.
Hmmm, perhaps you are referring to a different comment or thread. No such argument was offered by Yuri on this thread, so I'm going to ignore your statement as irrelevant to this discussion.
And this ignorant generalization (which is the very substance of bigotry and prejudice) with regards to what motivates theism is just the latest example.
Yuri's argument is NOT ignorant. I've told you several times already, there is substantial evidence to support it. If I'm not misremembering, I believe that even you have acknowledged the fact that many Christians deeply fear death and therefore cling to their belief as a result of this fear. And let me repeat: THIS IS NOT AN INSULT. This is nothing but an observation I have made through interacting with HUNDREDS of Christians, most of whom I know very closely. So, Mitch, are you trying to tell me that you know these people better than I do? The same goes for the morality argument. There is nothing bigoted or prejudice in this and I would like very much for you to stop claiming that there is. The absolute fact is that these two issues are very foundational elements of Christian belief and many, many Christisans would not be Christians if these two elements were removed. That is simply a fact that you are in denial of.
And a side note: I wonder if you know what the words bigotry and prejudice mean. Nothing in this discussion relates to those words. Perhaps we need a side discussion to sort that out.
I don't really see why they should do any different than so many atheists which is just to decide for themselves what the reasons are the people believe differently than they do.
Well, I disagree. YOu can simply ask people. I do it all the time. YOu would be amazed at what people will tell you if you only ask! So when I ask Christians this question of why they are a Christian, 80% of the time they tell me they don't want to go to hell and/or that god creates all morality and without it there would be chaos. So how else am I to interpret those answers? Granted, these are Southern Evangelicals and they may not look anything like Western Mormons or Northern Catholics, but I'm not talking about a universal answer here. It may just be that you are looking at the elephant's tail and I am looking at it's tusks. But you can't deny that it does have tusks.
I have seen no evidence that anything like a majority of Christianity is motivated by a fear of death. You don't see that motivation in the Bible and you don't see that motivation in most of the testimonies by Christians.
Hold on, I'm not saying it's a "majority" of Christians. But yes, a good proportion; I have no idea what percentage. You just don't believe me and I suppose I can't blame you because it is amazing to me as well. Listen, have you ever had a group of Christians come to your door unannounced, introduce themselves and the first question out of their mouth is: So, are you saved from eternal damnation?
I'm serious about this, Mitch, have you ever experienced this? Well, I have, many times over. Please give me an alternate explanation if what I'm saying isn't true.
I have ONLY heard this from atheists making up stuff about people who disagree with them.
And just how is it that you know they are "making stuff up" about them? Why do you distrust them? What is it about us atheists that makes you suspicious? Haven't you said many times that atheists are right about a lot of things? So why do you think I'm being dishonest about this particular thing?
The motivations that Rian ascribes fits very well with what Christians see in a large number of people "leaving the fold", where it appears that these are just people that don't want to live by "the rules".
You are likely speaking about people who are angry with god over some tragic event in their life. Yes, I can certainly see that a lot of people likely fit this description, but the truth is that the vast majority of those sort of people end up back "in the fold" before long. They get over their anger and eventually accept that they were just angry about life and those people hardly ever make it to the atheist side of the spectrum, although they may become far less fundamental than they once were.
No this does not fit so well with atheists I have talked to let alone those that I have grown up with.
Nevertheless I can see good reasons why many Christians have come to those conclusions that Rian express. I think they are ill informed generalizations but I certainly don't think they are far fetched and without justification.
Um, I'm sorry. Those are "good" reasons? How so?
This contrasts with Yuri's claim about theist motivations for which I see no justification whatsoever. I can only imagine that it is possible that he came to such a conclusion from personal experiences with some Christians, and on that basis only I can give him some benefit of the doubt that this is not completely fabricated, but that only makes it at most an ill informed generalization.
OK, I've got to go somewhere right now, but when I return, I'm going to do some research and put some evidence up here so you can see what Yuri is getting at. So, please, may I ask that you withhold judgment until I can do that?