The Psychological Reasons Maybe

[Moonwood the Hare]

I was not sure there was anyone there who could do that but then he did come, I felt his presence and a peace I had not known in many years and I knew he was there.

So this stands as a fair example of what atheists mean by "special knowledge". As a one-time Christian myself, I did this type of thing plenty of times, and never felt anything-- no presence, no particular peace, nothing. And I wasn't even hostile to it-- I was "doing god's work" and open to such an experience. But nothing ever came about. And I did it in times of certainty and in times of doubt, in good times and bad times-- but nothing. Consistently nothing.

I've related this to theists before, and generally the replies run the gamut from: "Your fault." (various reasons why, like I was not sincere, or I was testing, or any number of mind-reading assertions that were not true), to, "Gee, I'm sorry you didn't get what you needed." The latter is more sympathetic, but really only underscores that at least in my case, I don't/didn't rate the experience that came to you and others. Maybe god likes you better'n me, lol.

I've certainly had emotional responses to the story of the NT. I couldn't even help not tearing up at Mel Gibson's "Passion" -- though truth be told I also got angry at the endless ways he kept blaming the Jews and presented the Romans as if they were helpless, blameless pawns of the Sanhedrin. But anyway, the story of suffering and love and sacrifice-- these are potent and can bring about emotional responses-- in fact, this is what makes them important myths that can help motivate human actions. It doesn't indicate though that they are objectively truthful versions of reality (and indeed, other mythic traditions also can compel such emotional responses, and this doesn't mean they are true either).

But at the end of the day, if the Christian worldview is valid, then the story of your experience turns on some interesting (or troubling) points: You got the special knowledge. You get saved. I (and those like me) did not get the special knowledge, hence I am (and they are) not saved. You were hostile, yet apparently deserved the presence and the message. I was dedicated, but apparently did (do) not rate the same presence you experienced. Then there are those who were raised with an utterly conflicting/different tradition, who never think to even ask or supplicate; they are unlikely to receive the special knowledge as well, hence are as unsaved as I.

At the very least, I would think that an objective critique of these odd metrics is not outside of a reasonable response. And also it would seem that Hell will be very crowded.

And at this point, it all now seems very silly to me, and the whole thing has much more likely psychological reasons for being extant than the idea of a god, heaven, Jesus, sin, and so on. So if I'm "closed off" to it now, well so be it. I'm certainly happier this way, and more fulfilled, and my actions towards people are not much different than before, so ethically and morally, not a thing has changed (I actually like people more now, though in my conflicts here I suppose that isn't readily evident)

I get the impression that as a Christian you were involved with a very exclusivist soteriology - the idea that only people who have said certain magic words can be saved. I did start out with something like that kind of view but I never really held it consistently. I certainly don't think I know what anyone's final state will be or the comparative statistics of who is in heaven and hell. In the Catholic Church they sometimes like to say that although it is a dogma of The Church that there is a hell it is not a dogma that there is anyone in it. I certainly share the hope of Mother Julian that in the end all shall be well and all shall be well and all manner of thing shall be well. In the Eastern Church they call it apocatastasis. And I certainly do not know what your final state will be. I do not know why you never had the experience you were seeking but I also do not know whether you will be drawn towards this experience in the future. Simone Weil used to say 'Christ likes us to prefer truth to him because, before being Christ, he is truth. If one turns aside from him to go toward the truth, one will not go far before falling into his arms.' So I would encourage you to keep seeking truth and if that leads you to Christ so be it and if it leads you somewhere else so be it.

[Moonwood the Hare]

One night when I was reading about the crucifiction in the book I found there were tears in my eyes. I didn't feel highly emotional but I felt it was time to make a step forward so I got on my knees beside the bed. I said to Jesus that if he was there I wanted him in my life. I was not sure there was anyone there who could do that but then he did come, I felt his presence and a peace I had not known in many years and I knew he was there.

I notice that there are often tears involved, that and a feeling of wanting. I don't know what that means, just making a comment.

It's interesting to me that you said you felt a peace you had not known in many years. This tells me that you had felt such a peace prior to your spiritual experience. I don't know what that means either. Just commenting.

Thank you for sharing that, Moon.

Well there was a return to something I had known as a child. But you know I'd be a liar if I said that peace has always been with me since. I remember just after I became a Christian and another girl who had been a Christian a lot longer said that being a Christian did not mean she never got depressed and I felt as if I could never be depressed again. That was not the case.

[humanguy]

One night when I was reading about the crucifiction in the book I found there were tears in my eyes. I didn't feel highly emotional but I felt it was time to make a step forward so I got on my knees beside the bed. I said to Jesus that if he was there I wanted him in my life. I was not sure there was anyone there who could do that but then he did come, I felt his presence and a peace I had not known in many years and I knew he was there.

I notice that there are often tears involved, that and a feeling of wanting. I don't know what that means, just making a comment.

It's interesting to me that you said you felt a peace you had not known in many years. This tells me that you had felt such a peace prior to your spiritual experience. I don't know what that means either. Just commenting.

Thank you for sharing that, Moon.

Well there was a return to something I had known as a child. But you know I'd be a liar if I said that peace has always been with me since. I remember just after I became a Christian and another girl who had been a Christian a lot longer said that being a Christian did not mean she never got depressed and I felt as if I could never be depressed again. That was not the case.

I think I see what you're trying to say. Peace, I don't know what that is though. Why do people seek peace? It's a fantasy. Life simply isn't like that.

I'm trying to think of a time in my life life when I felt peace. To be honest with you, I don't know what that means, being at peace. I think peace is one of those things that people want but they'll never have it, because it's just a made up idea. Don't get me wrong, it's a very nice idea, but I've never seen peace. Life isn't peaceful. There is nothing wrong with life not being peaceful.

[Tim-the-Hermit]

I guess some people would feel 'at peace' riding white-water rapids! Different folks...etc.

[Moonwood the Hare]

I guess people seek peace because they feel that conflict is not an ultimate good. Most soldiers, at least the ones I talk to, say that they want to preserve or establish peace, politicians seem to think it is a good reason. At least no one says we are going to war because we all enjoy it and its a great thing. But then some people do get a buzz out of fighting - one historian even came up with a theory, hotly disputed, that the first world war was prolonged for as long as it was because everyone was enjoying the scrap so much.

As for inner peace - pain and terror and upset may be the materials of creative endeavour, they may in some ways be inspirational but very few people think of them as good in themselves. When I meet a person who has inner peace I think I recognize that as a good thing but I can see it comes from having learned to deal with the war and strife they may have been through.

In one of the Hindu scriptures there is an image of peace as being like a candle that does not flicker in a place where there is no wind. That seems like the peace of non-action which is what Hindu's strive for to be out of the cycle of change in the stillness at the centre. The Bible which was written in lands much troubled by war and conquest also sees peace as an ideal but it is a dynamic peace. The image is of peace like a river, like the Nile in fact, moving forward with great force. But if you have never known peace even fleetingly it must be hard to imagine.

[Aaron]

I think I see what you're trying to say. Peace, I don't know what that is though. Why do people seek peace? It's a fantasy. Life simply isn't like that.

I'm trying to think of a time in my life life when I felt peace. To be honest with you, I don't know what that means, being at peace. I think peace is one of those things that people want but they'll never have it, because it's just a made up idea. Don't get me wrong, it's a very nice idea, but I've never seen peace. Life isn't peaceful. There is nothing wrong with life not being peaceful.

At the risk of being made fun of...

I have to admit I have a hard time with peace myself. There are somethings in life that if I'm not careful I can get very anxious about and one day it was particularly bad. I was driving alone listening to the radio, there was a pastor doing a sermon but I was only half listening. I eventually got where I needed to be and was about to step out, the pastor was talking about trusting Jesus, and by doing so having real true peace. That made me stop. I didn't have peace, "There is something wrong with my relationship, because I don't have peace", I thought. So I prayed right then something like, "God here I am, I trust you with whatever may come, if you're God what do I have to fear" and immediately a peace and joy was in me. I was like oh my goodness, Jesus you're real, you're right here with me, I know you are here. And I couldn't help but tear up and say thank you and worship him. I understood at that moment that Jesus makes the difference in me, the real person of Jesus living inside of me is what makes the difference. Sometimes I doubt whether or not I'm tricking myself into thinking an experience or feeling I felt was brought upon by me (being real and genuine has been a great struggle of mine and I've grown to hate dubiousness and double mindedness in myself and I want so much to be real and honest so that's always a question I'm asking myself) or if it was actually God. This time wasn't one of those times, it was spontaneous and real and I knew Jesus was actually right there with me, it felt like I could have said hello.

Anyway, I wish I could say that I remained that way, but I'd be lying. Someday I hope to be always with him, there is nothing like it.

[Moonwood the Hare]

Gerard Manley Hopkins (1844–89). Poems. 1918.

Peace

WHEN will you ever, Peace, wild wooddove, shy wings shut,
Your round me roaming end, and under be my boughs?
When, when, Peace, will you, Peace? I’ll not play hypocrite
To own my heart: I yield you do come sometimes; but
That piecemeal peace is poor peace. What pure peace allows
Alarms of wars, the daunting wars, the death of it?

O surely, reaving Peace, my Lord should leave in lieu
Some good! And so he does leave Patience exquisite,
That plumes to Peace thereafter. And when Peace here does house
He comes with work to do, he does not come to coo,
He comes to brood and sit.

[humanguy]

One night when I was reading about the crucifiction in the book I found there were tears in my eyes.

I was like oh my goodness, Jesus you're real, you're right here with me, I know you are here. And I couldn't help but tear up and say thank you and worship him.

Why the tears?

[Tim-the-Hermit]

Gerard Manley Hopkins does alliterations in a wonderful weaving wistful way.

[Moonwood the Hare]

One night when I was reading about the crucifiction in the book I found there were tears in my eyes.

I was like oh my goodness, Jesus you're real, you're right here with me, I know you are here. And I couldn't help but tear up and say thank you and worship him.

Why the tears?

In that particular instance I'm not sure - though I think the idea of someone being killed in a horrible way should summon some emotional response we become innured to it, and people would have been even more used to it at that time. I think any attempt to explain an emotional reaction is largely guess work though. If you ask someone what made you cry? What made you angry? What made you smile? they are often hard pressed to answer.

[Moonwood the Hare]

Gerard Manley Hopkins does alliterations in a wonderful weaving wistful way.

One of my faviourite stories about Hopkins is told by F. R. Leavis. Hopkins was in correspondence with Robert Bridges. Bridges was trying to encourage Hopkins to write in a more conventional way and sent him examples of great poets. Hopkins replied 'The effect of studying masterpieces is to make me admire and do otherwise.' As Leavis says thats arrogance but it's the arrogance of genius. Bridges became poet laureate but today he is chiefly remembered as the posthumous publisher of Hopkin's poetry.

[Aaron]

One night when I was reading about the crucifiction in the book I found there were tears in my eyes.

I was like oh my goodness, Jesus you're real, you're right here with me, I know you are here. And I couldn't help but tear up and say thank you and worship him.

Why the tears?

Hmm, perhaps you could say they were tears of "wow, you love me so much, thank you, I love you for loving me, for being with me" kind of tears.

[humanguy]

One night when I was reading about the crucifiction in the book I found there were tears in my eyes.

Why the tears?

In that particular instance I'm not sure - though I think the idea of someone being killed in a horrible way should summon some emotional response we become innured to it, and people would have been even more used to it at that time. I think any attempt to explain an emotional reaction is largely guess work though. If you ask someone what made you cry? What made you angry? What made you smile? they are often hard pressed to answer.

I see.

[Tim-the-Hermit]

Gerard Manley Hopkins does alliterations in a wonderful weaving wistful way.

One of my faviourite stories about Hopkins is told by F. R. Leavis. Hopkins was in correspondence with Robert Bridges. Bridges was trying to encourage Hopkins to write in a more conventional way and sent him examples of great poets. Hopkins replied 'The effect of studying masterpieces is to make me admire and do otherwise.' As Leavis says thats arrogance but it's the arrogance of genius. Bridges became poet laureate but today he is chiefly remembered as the posthumous publisher of Hopkin's poetry.

Nice anecdote, Moonwood!

It is perhaps unfortunate that many people who are the best at what they do seem to be quite arrogant. I even see it in snooker where they still wear waist-coats and bow ties and call their own fouls. But then again, it makes sense that those people who are enjoying themselves and have a lot of self-belief and confidence are good at their jobs.

[mitchellmckain]

It is perhaps unfortunate that many people whop are the best at what they do seem to be quite arrogant. I even see it in snooker where they still wear waist-coats and bow ties and call their own fouls. But then again, it makes sense that those people who are enjoying themselves and have a lot of self-belief and confidence are good at their jobs.

AND... Perhaps there is a very big difference between the perception of arrogance and actual arrogance. It has been my observation that those who cry loudest about the arrogance of others are typically the most arrogant people of all. The pretenders who exaggerate their own competence tend to see any real competence as arrogance because it threatens the deception they try to maintain -- the deception of others and the deception of themselves.